Yeah, must've been just chilling watching PE beat the miler and the 800-year-old G3 gelding in that '88 Whitney…

....i thought she was if she won and sheba didnt fire.

Are you talking about King's Swan? If so....I am pretty sure he won multiple G2s that year, so I'm not exactly sure how that makes him a "G3 gelding."

Also, as for Gulch he won the Wood Memorial at 9f so it isn't like he couldn't get that distance. But even if you want to classify him as a "miler," is beating a really good miler going 9f that easy? It isn't like we are talking about beating a miler going 10+f.

I agree.

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys. I don't criticize it because that's the way it has typically been done in the US when mares face older Grade 1 colts. They look for an easy spot here or there or don't do it at all.

Rachel took on the best 3YOs, but when it came time to take on older males she took on Bullsbay and Macho Again (the 4th string). Again, nothing to criticize.

Zenyatta is the only one that is held to the standard of having to run against the best males a lot of the time or get trashed. It's a double standard.

How do you pick a 3 horse field ?

I agree that synthetic surfaces are not the major surface in the US and also agree that other than St Trinians she hasn't faced a single very good horse this year.

However, I think some of the horses she beat in 2008 and 2009 were very good horses whose synthetic form and quality was verified by various cross surface ventures. She crushed them.

At this point I have no problem with someone saying she's not a great dirt horse. She hasn't done enough to demonstrate that even though she's had two races on the surface and beat an Eclispe Award winning mare and previous Ladies Classic winner in one of them. I just don't think that matters. I don't trash Ruffian for never competing on turf or Miesque for never trying dirt. I recognize their special qualities and how they were suited to the surface they ran on. Different attitude. I love them all.

I think the point people are missing is that Zenyatta runs on the astroturf of horse racing while every single other horse mentioned in this thread ran their entire careers over a natural racing surface. When pro-ride or tapeta or polytrack go the way of the dodo bird in the next 20 years, we will really have no idea how good Zenyatta would have been good over dirt or grass.

The handicap division now sucks so much more than it did when Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret were running. I think that's a major reason why so many bombs are lobbed her way, because by running against Switch and Rinterval 17 of 19 times she's hit the track, who is she really avoiding? Richard's Kid?

These are the kinds of idiotic comments that I just love.

This comment implies that Personal Ensign's connection spent the year waiting for a major Grade 1 to have only two other entries and then slipped in at the least minute.

By the way, at 1 1/8 miles, Zenyatta wouldn't have had an easy time handling Gulch, and certainly wouldn't have done it on her 2010 form.

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

Sweet Jesus. Has classhandicapper never watched a race ran before 1989 or one that wasn't run in North America?

English Channel? One hell of an American Turf horse.

Is Pedigree Ann trolling?

Somewhere GPK got his wings.

Switch is a pretty good horse. No beast but pretty good.

Four words:

Gallorette
Twilight Tear
Busher

They don't make them like they used to. Could you imagine how far away from Stymie Zenyatta would be running if a horse of that caliber were on the track today?

Actually ran a pretty good race considering that field. I know that was nowhere near as good as last years Classic field:rolleyes: but running 5th beating the Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Travers etc. winners) in there was pretty impressive for a horse with nothing to prove.

There was no reason for the connections of Personal Ensign to choose the Classic, seeing the field that lined up in the starting gate for the 1988 Distaff, each of whom would have been tough for Zenyatta to run down. Winning Colors, Goodbye Halo, Sham Say, Classic Crown, Hail a Cab, Epitome, Willa on the Move, and Integra made up what could be considered the deepest field in the history of the Breeders Cup distaff so there was no real reason to run that year.

You say that Azeri got demolished in her run in 2004. She also faced Ghostzapper who was arguably the best horse we have seen in recent memory. Also faced Dubai World Cup winner Roses in May, BC Classic defending Champion Pleasantly Perfect, and she ran a pretty good race, mind you as a 6 year old. I would put money that Zenyatta wouldn't have finished any closer that year than Azeri did.

You act like Zenyatta did something amazing winning the Breeders Cup Classic over her favorite surface while getting a favorable setup over one of the weakest fields in recent memory in the race. Last year's classic featured decent turf/synthetic specialists such as Gio Ponti, Twice Over, Richard's Kid, Rip Van Winkle and such, and mediocre dirt runners or mediocre 3YOs like Colonel John, Awesome Gem, Mine that Bird, and Regal Ransom. The best dirt runner in the race at a clear disadvantage due to surface was Summer Bird, and the next best was probably Einstein, who as we all know was a neat horse, but hardly a standard for greatness. So that certainly wasn't in my estimation a strong field last year.

But should we expect anything different from someone who believes that Hystericalady was just as good on synthetics as she was on dirt...

Kind of tough to hold the whole "not facing boys" thing against Go for Wand when she freaking died on the track in November of her 3YO season.

Also, why did classhandicapper conveniently leave, say, Lady's Secret and Rachel Alexandra out of his argument, nevermind Goldikova, Zarkava, or Ouija Board? Was it because it would poke a slew o' holes in his/her argument?

It's also worth mentioning her connections had two runners in the Classic, including the runnerup.

You, shutup you!

You're still sore he cost you a few :$::$: in our matchup bets:)

I could use that hundred now. Haha

You have no idea...wait til that baby actually gets here:zz:

Costco.

First of all, the $10 is only for valet parking; the closest-in lots are now $5 instead of free, but the largest amount of parking area is still free, with shuttle buses to get you closer to the grandstand. See http://www.keeneland.com/racing/list...irections.aspx

Keeneland is more than a racetrack for Lexington folks; it is a social ritual. Young people come out to have a good time, not bet on the horses, but they do a bit of that, too. The grandstands are crowded, so it doesn't look like the higher price has cut into attendance (up from $3.50).

Oh, and you do know that the Keeneland Association is a non-profit, right? Anything left over after operating expenses and servicing debt goes to charity; Keeneland has given millions to charities in the Central Kentucky area over the years. It was formed by local breeders after the old Kentucky Association track downtown closed (and later became a housing project) so that the center of the breeding industry would still have a showcase for its products. And the sales part of the business has always subsidized the racing to a certain extent. Maybe since sales commissions have been down over the last couple of years, the association decided that the racing side needed to pay more of its way.

Relaxing - finished a good third to John Henry
Susan's Girl - demolished
Typecast - won at 12f turf
Drumtop - won 7 stakes against top male turfers, including HoY Fort Marcy

Now where I went to school, 'trolling' meant studying, as in trolls never saw the light of day since they were always at their desk or lab. ('Snaking' is what you did before exams to pass. Trolls did it for the love of it.) I have no idea how you are using the term.

Drumtop-all 15 hands and a bit, was a very tough little girl--the first horse I took to the races ...

Have we forgotten Shuvee winning the JCGC two years in a row ???

And Waya beat the boys in the Man O War and Turf Classic.

What about All Along....she only won the Arc, Washington DC International, Canadian International, and Turf Classic in seven weeks.

How about Dahlia?

Surely Zenyatta was better than all of these. What a joke.

I was just going to add Waya, but this is a more common occurence on turf --like All Along, Pebbles, and Dahlia--and on dirt it happens more commonly in sprints or absolute routes .

Ta Wee, Safely Kept, XTra Heat, etc could do it going short .

My Juliet knocked off the brilliantly fast Bold Forbes in the Vosburgh, and managed to stretch it in the Michigan Mile and one eighth ..

We also forgot Lady's Secret who won in the more contentious mid range of distance.

All Along , Dahlia and Waya were turfers--though Waya won on dirt--surely the poster that put this out knows that the aforementioned horse does not run on turf .....

Good call on My Juliet. Loved her.

It's actually more accurate to compare Zenyatta to turf horses at this point....at least in this manner.

I'm not seeing where she isn't exactly where she was last year. Her last two preps last year were a head win against a bad horse at Del Mar and a very slow win in the Lady's Secret with a Beyer slower than the top 6 finishers in the Goodwood on the same day last year. Her form and figures are meaningless as she proved last year. Shirreffs is a complete ass clown for stating she should be HOY regardless of the Classic especially the way he scheduled this year on winning HOY simply based on what she did in the Classic. And for him to state that makes me agree with those stating can it make the connections any more unlikable. It's a disgrace for him to say that.

I would say that it is hard to tell what the strength of American horses is. They don't run enough anymore. People are tricked into thinking a horse is better than they really are because of one or two races, usually against a watered down field. With the exception of the KY derby there is essentially no race that people won't duck.

Zenyatta has run against "the best" males less than 5% of her career despite there being virtually no good males to speak of.

Hell Zenyatta has only run against the best filles a handful of times.

Good one, we are talking about a horse who has won 9 straight grade 1 races, who knew her races were restricted to only bad horses.

So is this the, "they could have come to her house if they wanted" defense again?

She hasn't defeated a grade 1 winner in any of her races this year. So in her last 5 races she hasn't faced another horse that has won a grade 1.

Doesn't that shed a little bit of light on the quality of horses she is beating? They can call it a grade whatever, the competition still sucks.

Her connections seemed to know.

The designation of grade 1 doesn't necessarily mean that it is a tough field or even a good field. How anyone could argue that the fields she has beaten the majority of her career aren't decidedly sub par is beyond me.

How many graded winners total has she run against this year?