Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660470)

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

Not to mention the fact that he could carry his speed ten panels against the best comp.

Jury still very much out for QR on that one…

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 660474)

Who is MM that you refer to?

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660477)

Upon further, further review, all fields suck in 2009 or as conveniently argued.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 660479)

The hypocrisy of this BS is mindmelting.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660481)

Yeah tell me about it. :rolleyes: I still love the build up of that Woodward field, had Zenyatta won that, it would be considered the worst gr.1 field of the year. I agree the BS meter here is mindmelting.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 660484)

The fact that you still don't understand why the Woodward win was impressive is almost unfathomable.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660485)

The fact that you look at the competitors as stiff competition is just as unfathomable. But hey whatever cranks your case...

Originally Posted by HomerS (Post 660476)

Sky Beauty is a perfect example of East Coast bias. Especially when you look at how strong California racing was back then.

She beat up on the same horses back in NY, running very moderate figures, and then would get exposed and flop in the BC.

You never ever read about her having to run somewhere else to "prove herself" yet the Zenyetta detractors continue to hold her to a standard they dont seem to hold anyone else to.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 660487)

Thanks for proving my point. You still think it's about the specific competitors.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660125)

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660489)

Try that philosophy on Zenyatta if you can if you want me to believe that.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660432)

In reality, I posted according to the Crist blog that she had raced only once out of N.Y, go back and look. That started the dialogue for obvious reasons since one of Zenyatta's criticisms is she doesn't ship often enough, all the rest of the stuff came from your imaginary mind. I also pointed out wouldn't it be fairer to judge Zenyatta as a whole after this year, a point you agreed with me. If that is a backpedal in your mind, I'm sorry I can't help you.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660497)

Maybe you can get one of those soft donut thingies so you can sit back on your unicycle and pedal outta this non-existent discussion once and for all.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 660493)

I'm done trying to explain horse racing to you. It's pretty sad that you watch a three-year-old filly go :46 at Saratoga and bravely hold off perfect-trip solid older males at nine furlongs and can't recognize the rarity of the feat.

Notice how I didn't bring up the "other" horse in my explanation? It really isn't that difficult.

Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 660488)

Was anyone saying Sky Beauty was the best female to ever race back in 93 and 94?

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660467)

One needed "several screws" in her ankle after two starts while the other has been pretty much sound as a bell after 17?

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660503)

Sky Beauty is a good example that not all horses are made for shipping. From what I understand, and granted maybe I got some bad info, she just fell apart when she had to get on a plane or traveled and great distance..

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660470)

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 660505)

It's probably true, I remember John Veitch saying that she looked pretty bad prior to the 93 Distaff..

In 94 she was just abysmal at Churchill.. Hollywood Wildcat wasn't too much better that day either, as the favorite..

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660507)

I was commenting on Quality Road's schedule compared to Ghostzapper's and Skip Away's.

I was basically lamenting the way horses are campaigned nowadays.

Originally Posted by rgustafson (Post 660490)

Personal Ensign is without a doubt one of greatest fillies or mares ever. As has been stated, there was no reason for her to race anywhere other than where she did. An undefeated record that was capped by her win in the BC Distaff against Winning Colors, which imo may be the greatest race effort by any filly or mare period. I do think, however, we need to put her "beat males" achievment in perspective. That race was the Grade I Whitney at Saratoga. It was a three horse field and it was basically a match race between her and Gulch who had only one win from seven tries at 1 1/8 miles albeit against top company. The third horse in the field? King's Swan.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660498)

It's too bad you cannot accept other people's opinions, if I or Davidowitz want to compare Personal Ensign to Zenyatta, in our opinion we can. Get over it. Who is to say your opinion is more correct than others.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660511)

Gulch was defeated by Java Gold, Polish Navy, Lost Code, Cryptoclearance, Cutlass Reality, Alysheba, Bet Twice, and Personal Ensign. If I have my facts right, those are the only horses to beat him at 9f (at least in the 7 9f races I came up with).

I think it's pretty lofty company.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660515)

I'm still reeling from the unfair smackdown to the mighty Swan.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660515)

I'm still reeling from the unfair smackdown to the mighty Swan.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660513)

You're a dolt. I never said you couldn't give your opinion. You never gave one. You had no answer to my original post, remember?

Try to follow Smooth Operator's lead, at least he comes back with some rebuttal other than "she's not retired yet".

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660519)

I don't remember Swan but wasnt there a Kings Swan, and in particular a horse that got a bunch of bad rides as a maiden that cost me a fortune?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660524)

I was referring to Kings Swan ( I always remember some Aqueduct Stake that he toughed it out in under like 197 pounds and one of the Rastas saying " and NOOOOBODY passes the Swan " ).

He actually dealt Ogygian his first defeat and beat Gulch in the Tom Fool. He was also 5th behind Lady's Secret when she won the Whitney. He rocked.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660528)

okay, maybe it was a son of his, just remember betting a mdn going to the grass for the first time at like 70/1 only to get the worst ride ever and lose by a length or so, think you bet it as well.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660522)

Maybe you are unable to read or maybe you just avoid what I have stated a number of times already, here is what you said above, I clearly have stated let's wait until Zenyatta's career is over before making claims her race record of 'ennui'. But if if you ask me where she belongs, Zenyatta in my opinion already belongs with the greatest females of the game and this includes Personal Ensign. But I do understand why some others need to see more, I can accept that, I don't need anymore confirmation but yes it would be nice if she can prove it on BC day once and for all to the remaining sceptics.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 660487)

Thanks for proving my point. You still think it's about the specific competitors.

Originally Posted by rgustafson (Post 660490)

I do think, however, we need to put her "beat males" achievment in perspective. That race was the Grade I Whitney at Saratoga. It was a three horse field and it was basically a match race between her and Gulch who had only one win from seven tries at 1 1/8 miles albeit against top company. The third horse in the field? King's Swan.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 660176)

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660531)

He had no balls....and no sons.

I remember that maiden we bet as well. Wasn't it the last race at Belmont a few years ago?