Yes, but saying it's a 100% failure is beyond ridiculous, and our country fairly deserves far better than that assessment.

There are plenty of successionists around, and maybe they should.

lol
i have what i have because i worked for it. forgive me for believing that other people who want what i have can have it too. they can work for it just like i did and continue to do. i don't feel guilty because i think everyone who looks at what i've earned and wants it should work for it just like i did. no one has given me a thing. i've worked for it, it's mine. so, yeah, you're right. i don't want to give others my stuff. i want them to get it for themselves just like i did. how is that wrong? i didn't get a leg up, no free rides from anyone. why do others feel they should get what i've earned, without earning it?! my husband and i pay 187 every two weeks for health insurance. it was never a discussion of whether we could afford it, it was and is a necessity for us and our children. problem is, others such as some people who work for me, choose not to take out the health insurance available. but now i'm supposed to watch my costs and taxes skyrocket because a guy would rather buy chewing tobacco then pay for health insurance? he can't afford the one, but he can afford the other? and i'm supposed to feel bad if he gets the flu and doesn't go to the doctor, and whines that he hasn't got insurance? he chose not to get it. the employees portion where i work for his coverage is 10 bucks a week, but he chose not to get it! gimme a break. yeah, he's cheated out his rightful share. :rolleyes:

what's a successionist?

Interesting. I haven't seen too many discuss the psychological aspects of the current polarization of the country on most issues. I don't know if I would agree with all those characterizations. Some of them, yes.

Some (the general "some") are clearly mislead about what is or is not involved in health reform (thinking things are there that are clearly not). Thus they dislike something that doesn't exist. I'm not interested in changing peoples opinion to match mine. But I am interested in discussing differences of opinion, based in accuracy. Before you can assess something, you have to at least have some familiarity with it. If you actually know what is there, and don't like it, that's different than blindly fearing the unknown, or having been lied to about content ("death panels" "Muslim Kenyan" type of thing)

I wouldn't characterize most who disagree with health reform as selfish individualists. I see nothing wrong with strong individualism, and think it can co-exist with strong societal mores and sense of community, co-shared existence.

I do think it's true most people don't worry about what's not directly affecting them or under their own nose. And many fear change for change's sake, fear of the unknown, "outside forces", especially when the country has been so unsteady the past few years.

An "ionist" who is successful? :D How about secessionist. Better?

But what if it was $867 a month, with some medical problems and routine monthly medications you have to take not covered?

I had health insurance at a practice I worked at about 5 years ago, and it was employee matching and cheap, but when I left, the same insurance cost was nearly $1000 a month for me to purchase it and keep the same plan as an individual.

Please don't assume that everyone who does not have health insurance is chewing tobacco, managing their finances or priorities wrong. Sure, some are, but lots of hardworking people can't afford health insurance once they have a medical problem, especially if they have moved, changed jobs, have to change carriers. It all starts from scratch at that point as far as the insurance carrier goes.

lol that works.

And here I thought that this was what you said. Silly me.

The numbers are still juiced and the whole economic premise is built on pie in the sky projections regardless of how you try to spin it. It is like saying that if every KC Royal hits .390 with 30 HR's next year and every pitcher throws 30 CG shoutouts, they will win the WS. Yeah sure...

And the scary thing is there is probably a better chance of KC winning the WS than Obamacare reducing the deficit

Well you finally said something correct. The other 85% can begin to flounder right alongside those 15%. Your problem is your determination to make this bill or others floated out (you have been behind everyone proposed despite huge differences in the proposals) to be the best possible healthcare reform when it clearly is terribly flawed. The healthcare issue was made the big priority simply because Obama, Pelosi and Reid wanted to be the three new faces on the liberal Mt Rushmore. Perhaps if you found one issue within the bill that you took issue with we wouldnt consider you simply a shill for Obama. But that is not likely.

Your ability to twist is really not a strongpoint. The guy simply pointed out the economic failures of a number of huge govt programs. He is absolutely 100% correct. If you have some hidden information on those programs not being ecomnomic losers I am sure we would all love to see it.

Right and the best approach would have been insurance reform. Costs trillions less and can actually work. but i digress...

LOL - you just keep ignoring, don't you? :D

Merry Christmas to all my angry Libertarian and Teabagging friends here on Dee Tee, you patient Progressives, too, and especially my fellow Mods to the right. We'll all get health care reform for Christmas, which will apparently be the end of civilization as we know it, but try to enjoy the holidays and your families, anyway :)

GFY

Please, don't use up the only adverbs you know in one post.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1261...toWhatsNewsTop

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ctions_opinion

That's an abbreviation, you ignorant s.lut.

Here are two more

EAD
DIAF

LOL. Big deal. You're the pathetic, chronic DT joke, who thinks he's a shocking impressive bully, but only repeatedly demonstrates that he has the mental maturity of a not-very-word-wise child.

Yeah, using naughty words and hurling insults, your repeated temper tantrums against other DeeTeer's you don't like proves you're a really a big important guy.

ROFLMAO.

LOL - we started beating up on these greedy porkers back on page one here, 'Zig!

That's another reason to change the filibuster rules - it will help keep this from happening.

Hey

I did leave out Amtrak. I just thought that was piling on.

based on these clear government failures, i'm looking forward to a 2010 republican campaign centered on getting rid of the post office, social security, medicare and medicaid.

might i suggest you folks throw in tearing up the national highway system and have it replaced by a privately run national tollway system. market forces really ought to be able to do a better job than the travesty we're now saddled with. market forces are the solution to all problems after all.

All this only makes the point that this shouldn't be treated like some sort of option. It should be treated like crime protection, fire protection, and military protection. When this plan starts working, I do not expect you to be paying 5k a year for you n' your husband's yearly medical care. Wait n' see. You are going to be better off. Right now, I would guess that, even though you n' hubby are paying that much, you are still at risk of being dropped if you get a long-term illness. Maybe one of you needs a 100k surgery, and then they try to make you folks pay 10k/year. They can do this right now. You have quite a ways to go before you're covered by Medicare. This black guy you've been bad mouthing is gunna save you n' hubby a lot of money. You are red meat right now for insurance companies to savage(and they are doing exactly that.) Right now, some of these insurance companies are only using 50% of their money on patients care. The other half is on stuff like C.E.O pay etc. Under this plan, they are gunna have to spend 85% of the money on patient care. There is zero doubt in my mind that you n' hubby are going to be better off, but you wait n' tell me about it. Doesn't sound like what you've got is something to be thrilled about having. You really want to keep paying 5k a year? Try 12-15k if this doesn't pass, and you start having to use your insurance. What about if you both somehow lose your jobs, and don't have it offered by your new employer. That happens. People have to take jobs that don't offer any coverage. Under this plan, you'll keep your insurance(and pay whatever portion of the premiums your new income will support.)There are big consumer protections with this plan. You know this is not radical. I know it's sold that way on here, but civilized Democracies do this for a good reason (the alternative does not work.) You think it works, but I'm pretty sure there are circumstances (beyond your control) that would change your mind about this system.

Well, they are against sharing risk. There are many reasons for that. One main one is the lack of common blood(melting pot.) People are much less interested in sharing risk with people that aren't like themselves. If you're Swedish, then you're probably going to be more more willing to want to share risk with Swedes. That's because of ethnic pride, and common cultural values. Other than this no-common-tribe factor though, one can't deny that most of those against healthcare reform are simply selfish and/or stubborn. Look, when you have a couple paying 5k a year, and they don't want to change it? That's pretty damn stubborn. The thing about a lot of these folks that gets me is how they so quickly change their tune about the value of human life. Something doesn't even have a brain yet, and they consider it so precious. Well, fine, but notice how they change their tune later on if that baby grows up poor. Couple weeks ago they had some lady show up at one of those arena clinics they've been having. There is nothing they could really do for her. She had breast cancer eating her up. Amazing how if she was 2 months in the womb they'd care about her, but not now. Now they think she's getting what she must be deserving. At that same arena clinic they had a nurse come for care. They weren't getting enough hours, at either hospital they worked at, to qualify for medical coverage.

you do know Obama's 'adopted' land is Chicago where the highways, parking meters and maybe water dept have been 'privately leased' for 99 yrs to foreign entities........

and them the Dem Machine!

the reality is that yes, all those systems would be handled better by the private sector. no doubt, all of them.

where would you draw the line? can you not see that the line keeps moving and that one by one our freedoms are disappearing and they're creating a system that traps people in a dependent status, forever relying on the government? all in the name of fairness and equality. i've seen this plan before, it's been tried, and it doesn't work. It doesn't end well.

so your idea is let's go for the full monty, lets do it all. we'll get our jobs, cars, health care, food, housing and all other rations directly from uncle sam?

The necessity of the programs arent the topic, the financial failures of these govt run businesses is, especially when we are being told Obamacare will be a rousing financial success. There seemingly is no precedent for this.

actually, no. my idea is that we've lived in a mixed economy all our lives. it's one where the market has successfully co-existed with government programs. and there's legitimate arguments about what is best handled by each.

that isn't a radical idea. what's actually radical is the rhetoric being piped down from the extreme right and repeated here that there is no legitimate role for government in the economy. anytime. anywhere. that cutting government is always good and if we just unleash market forces all problems will be solved.

that seems to fly in the face of the experience we just went through where regulation of banking was loosened to the point that the invisible hand of the market just about steered us into a depression. and were it not for unprecedented government intervention in the economy, would have.

the problem is the right can't seem to learn. the rhetoric is always the same regardless of the circumstance.

any ny state resident should be ashamed of our senators , where was the girl from saratoga county ,she could have gotten NY some free handouts , ny is going to take worse on the chin than any other state

Lyndsey Graham wants you to know that his state has a 31% African American Population.

Your generalization is far offbase.

The idea that of lax banking regulation almost forcing us into a depression or govt intervention somehow prevented that from happening is complete fiction. Roughly a month a ago the Fed Reserve admitted that the basic premise that the original TARP was passed upon was for the most part not true.

I guess you missed the that.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...408387548.html

Spin this

Why would you think anyone you are arguing with would take anything in the WSJ seriously? One of the 1st things I see on there is Karl Rove's name. If he's on there, it's limited. Can I write on there about illegal immigration, n' Islam? That's really the 2 issues you folks have come correct on(2 hits, and a gang of outs.)

that would be like saying fox news is liberal because alan colmes had his name on there. i don't care for karl rove, but i still read the wsj.

The WSJ is a big boy publication.

Cheney n' Rove are off the chart. If either one is writing in your paper, then it's only credible with Conservatives. To be honest, MSNBC(Progressive) and Fox News are that way, too. To MSNBC's credit, they do have Scarborough, and Buchanon on in the early mornings. They each at least have a good sense of humor(especially Pat.) When you have Pat Buchanon sitting there as Mika-the-Blonde is reading the news, it's a minefield. They were talking about the glut of Chihuahuas in Cali animal shelters, and Joe asked him what he thought about it.

Pat said "Those are Mexican Dogs....Aren't they?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuUdV...eature=related

^ Watch him blow it up after the fist pound starting at 2:05. LOL.They are talking about his interview with Ali G. That was pretty kool, too. He's such a good sport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAfQh...eature=related

lol..at 1:00 Pat stars..MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!! Laugh, cry, or drink some more wine.

"Dr. Gottlieb ... He is partner to a firm that invests in health-care companies."

Naw. This guy would have no interest at all in looking out for the financial interests of healthcare companies, first and foremost, in any healthcare reform. Not part of that lobby. Nope. :D

Not so much on the op-ed page since Rupert Murdoch bought it in 2007. You know Rupert - owner of Fox News?

You're the only guy I know who quotes op-ed pieces as if they were fact.