No, see, all you've done in post after post is change the subject and misrepresent what I'm saying, which is creating a straw man argument that is easy for you to counter.

That you liked Bush? Not the issue, and I am not making it the issue.

That you dislike Obama? Not the issue, and I am not making it the issue.

That you are a small business owner to whom I owe all my success and good fortune? Not the issue, and I am not making it the issue. (See how creating a straw man works?)

Gay rights and abortion? Not the issue, and I am not making it the issue.

But when you just "read" (if you even are) everything I'm typing and then try to pretend that those are the points I'm making, then you can yap away and defeat those talking points, then you win. Congratulations. You've defeated the arguments I'm not making.

The point, which I'll say again, is not at all that you dislike what Obama is doing. I don't care. And then you say things like “I’m going to continue to use my right as an American to criticize the President.” Good for you…again not the point, but quite patriotic and a good way to once again shift the debate to make it seem like I’m trying to stop you from criticizing him. Hell, I’m not even trying to stop wackos on your side from bringing guns to public rallies about the President.

I’m not “mad” that you say I’m blaming Bush, because on several topics, I still do, and have no problems with that. The problem is that you’ve become so comfortable, as people did with shouting “Bush Derangement Syndrome” when people offered any substantive criticism of Bush to avoid having to deal with the issues, to saying “oh you’re just blaming Bush still,” even when NOBODY IS BLAMING BUSH.

It’s not deflecting from one issue to another to point out the obvious fact that you had little to no financial criticism offered up anywhere until Obama became President, even when Bush was spending plenty of money. (Now, before you go straw man crazy, as I’m sure you will, I’m not BLAMING BUSH for spending money, I’m saying you only care now.) And now that you’re posting like an incredible machine about Obama and money, one could reasonably believe that financial issues are of the utmost importance to you – which is exactly why it strikes me as quite odd that you didn’t seem all that interested in wasteful spending until Obama was doing it. You can offer up whatever you’d like in response to that, but it’s just simple observation of how you current posting seems to reflect a newfound importance of certain issues that were of no such importance 18 months ago.

Of course I stand on the Left. More left of the “Left,” actually. And that doesn’t make me smarter or more important (straw man #86, breaking records like Secretariat here!), it makes me honest.

I’m sure you feel like you’re wasting your time with this, as am I, because you won’t even accurately represent what I’m saying in your responses…again, a typical tactic employed with about an 80/20 split by your side rather than mine. Ie, socialized medicine = death panels. It’s easy to win arguments when you’re not even arguing them honestly and you’re not even arguing the points your opponents are making. That’s what a straw man argument is, which I’m sure you know, as you’ve become quite adept as using them with nearly unbelievable frequency.

It sure would, if more than 10% of that post actually accurately represented anything I've said, I'd be more than happy to concede Timm.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth. You said that small business owners " basically carry this country" which is of course....one giant load of crap. No one group of people "carries" the rest of the country. Would this country function far differently if all of the small business owners in the country suddenly vanished tomorrow? Well....yeah of course. But the same is true for dozens of other professions. It isn't all about economic impact. But on that particular subject, in my opinion, your sugestion that teachers have minimal econominc impact on the country is taking such a narrow view of what "economic impact" means that it boggles the mind. Do they pay a lot of taxes or employ others? No. Does that mean they don't have a huge effect on the nation's economy? Absolutely not.

As for employing the working class, your argument is that small business owners "carry" the country because they employ the working class. Fine. But the same argument could easily be flipped. The working class carries the small business owners because without laborers and employees, most of those small businesses would fail. Does that mean that working-class people are actually the ones that "carry" the country? I imagine some on the left would say yes to that, while most of those on the right would scoff.
Personally, I don't see any one group of people "carrying" anything.

I think you presume too much to know the mind of the people you duel with....Chuck and I are not the same, just as you and GBBob are not the same. Whether you are tying to or not, I think you are being disingenuous
when you trot out the Party line on pretty much everything. Peoples' concepts and priorities can change in 18mos.....mine sure have in the last 10 months.

I don't care what Chuck thinks, to be honest. I've pointed out Chuck's sudden interest in finances, posting about them at an incredible rate, and he's begun the BDS, Blame Bush retort.

If Chuck said, well yea, finances just really started mattering to me, and wasteful spending just really started mattering to me in the last 10 months, our conversation would have been over.

Pointing out the frequency and topic of Chuck's own posting is not disingenuous in any sense of the word -- it's making an observation, one that seems to continue to strike a nerve with Chuck, such that he seems to see the need to change the subject away from my observation any change he gets by claiming that the reason it happened is because I'm a deranged Bush-hating lefty....which has nothing to do with anything I've said on the topic at all.

And all of the replies are the same -- it'd be like me starting a big commentary on how you and Chuck should stop saying that Obama is mangling the nation's finances because he's a Black Muslim, and Black Muslims can't manage American finances.

I would win that argument....despite the fact that you're not even making it, because I've twisted what you're saying, changed the subject, and created an easy-to-win argument for myself...which is the tactic Chuck has employed in response to me for about six consecutive posts now.

What? Your guy is still doing it at every turn.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...846099654.html

This is your original post. You make no points about the topics. You just take a cryptic potshot at anyone who doesnt agree with Obama.

In your responses to me, is naturally what I meant. I blame Bush for plenty, but you don't get to shout "blame bush!!!!" every time you want to avoid a conversation just because someone DOES Blame Bush for certain things, when I'm not actually blaming Bush for something. Back to you using it as a Get Out of Jail Free card in talking to me. Use it when I actually blame it, it loses its punch otherwise, dude.

Take that up with Obama, add it to the reasons you dislike him -- again, that has nothing to do with me, your posting, and this conversation.

Well I give you free license to take potshots at me when I post misleading figures and numbers.

In fact, I would be disappointed if you didn't.

If Obama starts a war during his term, and I say nothing...that would be the equivalent of what you're doing.

Brian: I realize that I have no idea how your mind works, so why would you bother to post about an arguement that hasn't taken place yet? Pretty eerie, if you ask me. and btw....Obamas' own party has helped him mangle the nations' finances for quite awhile now.

:tro:

The point was it being an example of how to create a straw man where I could completely frame an argument you were making into an easily winnable argument for me, despite the fact that it's not actually what you're even saying.

YOU: Why is Obama ruining the nation's finances?!

ME: WHY DO YOU HATE HIM CUZ HE'S BLACK?!

Small business isnt a profession. Your argument is stunningly lame. To argue against the economic imact of small business in the USA is pure folly.

Where have I disagreed with the statement that small business owners have a tremendous economic impact on the country? They obviously do, and I have never, and will never dispute that.
That doesn't mean that they "basically carry the country" as you so outrageously and naively claimed.

I think that way of communicating is disingenuous at the least.

My sudden interest in finance. LOL

You gleaned an awful lot of information and theories on one simple sentence. The fact is by mentioning the "previous 8 years" you are in effect using a cousin to the Blame Bush theory. Get off the high horse and realize that you were the one who changed the subject.

Where do I avoid conversation? And since when do you determine exactly what can or cant be said?

it has everything to do with this conversation. If Obama is allowed to blame Bush then why cant I say it?

Of course it is. That's why I'm hoping Chuck will stop and get to what I'm actually saying at some point before the end of Obama's first term.

Ah, a cousin to the "you're stifling my free speech!!!!!" meme, which naturally, I’ve done none of.

You can talk about people blaming Bush, even call them on it, but you don’t get to say “STOP BLAMING BUSH” when someone is talking about a topic on which they are NOT BLAMING BUSH and expect people to take it seriously and then get all frustrated when people call you on that $hit.

That’s about the 11th time I’ve said that in the last two days. Not. Computing.

LOL. no.

No it wouldnt. It simply isnt the same. You cant take complex issues and simply throw a blanket over them and say, OK for or against.

Prove your point.

What you are saying is BS.

Under your rules of engagement I couldnt critize the Bears for trading for Jay Cutler now because I kept quiet when the trade first happened.

You said I CANT say something. Did you not?

When you refer to debates or lack thereof using the last 8 years as the premise exactly how isnt Bush involved? Without actually saying the words, you are implying that Bush did somethig wrong. If not there would be no need for debate.

Anyway congrats to effectively deflecting the attention off of the Disaster in Chief

You need me to prove the point that there is more to a country than simply employing people and paying taxes?

Right....as I said, I've never disputed the economic impact of small businesses.

Ok Chuck, if you're going to take me that way, then all bets are off.

"You can't tell me Rumor Has It is going to win the Sycamore," obviously means that I disagree with your premise, not that you are NOT ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO SAY IT.

I would say such a reading is, in fact, disingenuous, but then you will say I'm blaming Bush for your overly literal interpretation of what I'm saying.

Useless. I give up. Uncle. You win. Drained me of my energy with disingenuous interpretations and straw man arguments. You would actually make a really good conservative commentator, since you've mastered their tactics.

It's like arguing with a less intellectually honest version of Sean Hannity....if that's even humanly possible.

It is like arguing with a brick wall....well....a brick wall that knows how to post links to web-sites and articles that don't actually have anything to do with the topic being discussed.

so they really do "basically carry the country"!

yea there's all of those unemployed and not paying taxes, illegals some of who pay taxes and some who don't and let's not forget all those government workers, both Federal and local including politicians who are paid directly using taxes.

Does England and Canada give illegals free health care? What about the people who can work and dont want to get off thier worthless ass'? Do they deserve free hell care? HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Small businesses make up more than 99.7% of all employers

Small businesses create more than 50 percent of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP)

Small businesses employ about 50 percent of all private sector workers

Small businesses make up 97 percent of exporters and produce 29 percent of all export value.

The latest figures show that small businesses create 75 percent of the net new jobs in our economy.


Uh yeah they do.

So you are basing your attack/defense on yourdefinition of "basically carrying the country" and how it differs from mine? That's mighty rich of ya! Of course your definition is correct as you have distinctly and clearly pointed out where you are right and I am wrong.

Oh you just chose to assume your view is right and mine wrong. Why not. Brian has studied my posts and political opinions for the last 8 1/2 years and has determine that doth protest too little and you are just picking up the slack. Good job.

Give me a break with your roundabout bullshi t.

You want to call me intellectually dishonest? Fine.

I will be the bigger man and say that is your view and you are entitled to it however distorted and simpleminded it may be.

Give me a break. You just dont bother reading the posts and cant follow along with the topics.

LOL. How big of you, Chuck.

I didnt say literally. The way you use twisted logic it could actually be a compliment.

Says the man who couldn't post an intellectually honest argument if someone else wrote it for him.

xo
The Bigger Man

UH i was agreeing with you!

You arent really aware of the meaning of intellectually honest or dishonest are you? In order to be intellectually dishonest I would have to knowingly advance an argument that I knew was based on untrue information. Or I would have to knowingly withhold information that was relevant to my argument.

When exactly have I done this?

Just one example. And me saying that Democrats still "blame bush" is simply an opinion based on valid information. No honesty involved.

Keep up the the fight. Your party will need you the next few elections.