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-   -   Lava Man back in training? (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31891)

Cannon Shell 09-26-2009 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
So if I am understanding you correctly HOF trainer, legendary conditioner, Richard Mandella, knowningly raced a horse that was part of his barn and personna, with an ailment that should have killed the horse. Well if this is true and I have no reason to think you are lying, there is no hope for horse racing. If one of the most respected trainers in the industry is willing to have the blood of a beloved horse on his hands then what should the public expect from run of the mill juicers trying to pay bills?
Ask Honu about him. She knows more about him than anyone. Ask her if they may bring him back with this new found therapy? See what she says.

Cannon Shell 09-26-2009 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
You train Lava Man?
You ever train any horse?

Cannon Shell 09-26-2009 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV
You dont seem to deal very well with them. There are 2 sides of the ladder one goes up and the other goes down. Playing as a trainer and having sucess are two different things.

I dont play myself off to be anything other that a gambler and have owned some horses that raced in California during the mid 80's.
???

RolloTomasi 09-26-2009 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
You ever train any horse?
Definitely not Lava Man.

RolloTomasi 09-26-2009 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Ask Honu about him. She knows more about him than anyone. Ask her if they may bring him back with this new found therapy? See what she says.
He's a moot point. The injury that led to his retirement was not directly related to running/training.

freddymo 09-26-2009 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Ask Honu about him. She knows more about him than anyone. Ask her if they may bring him back with this new found therapy? See what she says.
I have no doubt that the horse will never return to his 5 year old form. I have zero doubt that greed isn't the motivation, I still think it is far from crimnal to attempt to resurrect a gelding to race competitively again. I also don't understand the outrage. It's a friggin horse that is getting premier care and would have his ballz washed for him if he had them.. If he makes it back and wins a Sunshine million type race well that would be cool. If he doesn't he can always go to the sunshine nursing and retirement assitted living home. If he dies it is way more likely to be from colic or some other type of horse ailment then snapping leg in half. If he snaps his leg in half on friggin well he is a racehorse and this happens to healthiest of horses daily. Ask Kona Gold were he would have rather died, he wouldn't care because he is a horse and horses don't contemplate death, they are horses not humans.

King Glorious 09-26-2009 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
name an example of a 9 year old that came back off a long layoff to compete at a graded level.
That's not the issue. The issue is you saying he's nine so therefore he HAS to have physical limitations that would preclude him from racing. All I say is maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But him being nine doesn't make it automatic. All 9yos aren't the same. How many 7yos before Precisionist had come back and done it? He did it. Every circumstance and every horse is different. His age is not the determining factor here, it's his health. He might be more physically able to run as a 9yo than a 3yo like Quality Road.

chucklestheclown 09-26-2009 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightseek
I'm not a big fan of some of the things I've read by Plonk, but I agree with this article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/hor...emy&id=4499660
George Washington has 0 in common with Lava Man, imo. And none of the red herrings here have anything to do with his situation either. It was only the track (and bc greed) that killed him. Nothing more, nothing less.

chucklestheclown 09-26-2009 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Unlike the average race fan I actually have a little experience with horses.
Do you have more experience than O'Neill? Than why don't you put that to work and give me the stats why these owners are so bad? If you own 100 stakes horses that is who breaks down on you; do you want them to just reinvest in 15k claimers that PETA will not care about?

Cannon Shell 09-26-2009 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown
Do you have more experience than O'Neill? Than why don't you put that to work and give me the stats why these owners are so bad? If you own 100 stakes horses that is who breaks down on you; do you want them to just reinvest in 15k claimers that PETA will not care about?
Forget it. You guys have missed the painfully obvious point.

RolloTomasi 09-26-2009 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Forget it. You guys have missed the painfully obvious point.
That you somehow know more about Lava Man's current condition than anybody else?

I really need to sign up for DRF Plus.

NTamm1215 09-26-2009 11:18 PM
Doesn't anyone else think that this is most likely to end in one of two scenarios?

A.) He never regains his form before retirement #1 and gets beaten up before retiring again.

B.) He gets hurt.

The likelihood of this horse coming back and competing at a high level is infinitessimal. Anyone who thinks differently is kidding themself.

NT

King Glorious 09-26-2009 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Doesn't anyone else think that this is most likely to end in one of two scenarios?

A.) He never regains his form before retirement #1 and gets beaten up before retiring again.

B.) He gets hurt.

The likelihood of this horse coming back and competing at a high level is infinitessimal. Anyone who thinks differently is kidding themself.

NT
I don't think he's going to come back at a high level. Fortunately, looking at what's running in Cali, he won't have to in order to be successful. For me, I don't care what level he runs at. Whether it's in grade one stakes or $5k optional claimers doesn't matter to me. I know how good he was when he was good and those memories won't fade no matter how bad he would do nowdays. As long as he doesn't get hurt, no other ending is a bad one to me. I think those that are saying he's going to get hurt are being ridiculous. Those who are so concerned with his legacy are more concerned with their memories of him than how he's going to feel after a couple of bad losses.

Kasept 09-27-2009 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
That you somehow know more about Lava Man's current condition than anybody else?

I really need to sign up for DRF Plus.
What he knows about are elder horses. With arthritic joints. And Lava Man has them because EVERY HORSE HIS AGE HAS THEM. Chuck is certainly correct that those who seem excited beyond comprehension at this fiasco in the making don't get the point. The downside of this vanity driven effort, which comes in direct contradiction to the connections announced plans for the horse, is far greater than the upside.

Are those that don't like the idea rooting against Lava Man returning and competing at a high level or guaranteeing a devastating injury? No.. The argument against this derives from the potential that this has, however small or large, to be an embarrassment or humiliation for the game.

The horse in question was a star, and if something bad should happen to him as a result of this longshot expirement, it will be used in a high profile manner by the sport's detractors. The connections handled this very poorly. As previously mentioned, if this was the plan, then it should have been made known from the moment they decided they were going to try to go this route. But instead, they misrepresented themselves to Michael Blowen, Old Friends and the public by saying, as recently as August mind you, that Lava Man was going to their facility.

Danzig 09-27-2009 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
What he knows about are elder horses. With arthritic joints. And Lava Man has them because EVERY HORSE HIS AGE HAS THEM. Chuck is certainly correct that those who seem excited beyond comprehension at this fiasco in the making don't get the point. The downside of this vanity driven effort, which comes in direct contradiction to the connections announced plans for the horse, is far greater than the upside.

Are those that don't like the idea rooting against Lava Man returning and competing at a high level or guaranteeing a devastating injury? No.. The argument against this derives from the potential that this has, however small or large, to be an embarrassment or humiliation for the game.

The horse in question was a star, and if something bad should happen to him as a result of this longshot expirement, it will be used in a high profile manner by the sport's detractors. The connections handled this very poorly. As previously mentioned, if this was the plan, then it should have been made known from the moment they decided they were going to try to go this route. But instead, they misrepresented themselves to Michael Blowen, Old Friends and the public by saying, as recently as August mind you, that Lava Man was going to their facility.

i can certainly see where this would be an issue. honestly, when he didn't show up last fall right after the announcement was made, i felt something was up. perhaps they didn't want to announce what they were really doing until they saw results, but they certainly shouldn't have continued with that charade.

Riot 09-27-2009 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
What he knows about are elder horses. With arthritic joints. And Lava Man has them because EVERY HORSE HIS AGE HAS THEM. .
To a widely variable extent. Not all horses are the same. Certainly not all are affected clinically to the same extent, let alone all be performance-limiting.

None of us are privy to the true extent or exact nature of Lava Man's "arthritis".

BTW, osteoarthritis (intra-articular inflammation, synovial effusion, +/- some cartilage erosion) increasingly seems to respond wonderfully to stem cell therapy. In all species. It does seem to be a bit of a 'miracle" for that use, as more idealized therapeutic regimines are developed.

Edit: looking at what has been published in the racing press about Lava Man, it appears he has received:

1. Bone chips arthroscopically removed from his ankles
2. Autologous stem cell therapy (bone marrow removed, washed, the stem cells retained and injected back to the patient's joints)
3. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy
4. Nutritional therapy

This is terrific, state-of-the-art, cutting-edge therapy. Below is a basic overview for those that want to learn more about what the future of orthopaedics holds for all species (btw, stem cell therapies are already being used successfully to treat some cancers in humans)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_ce...rtilage_repair

RolloTomasi 09-27-2009 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
What he knows about are elder horses. With arthritic joints. And Lava Man has them because EVERY HORSE HIS AGE HAS THEM.
And what he doesn't know is Lava Man personally. And what else he doesn't know is what sort of response the horse will have to stem cell therapy, very much in the fledgling stages. I understand he has a lot experience training racehorses, but he's reading the same news reports us Googlers are, and last time I checked, holding a valid trainer's license doesn't concurrently endow you with the skill or knowledge of veterinary medicine, never mind make you well-versed in stem cell therapy.

Quote:
Chuck is certainly correct that those who seem excited beyond comprehension at this fiasco in the making don't get the point.
I don't know if anyone in this thread who supports this return to training could be labeled "excited". However, the detractors who try to make this more or less dime-a-dozen comeback story some sort of hot button issue by flame-throwing terms like "liar" and "dead horse" could possibly be considered to have their respective panties in a bunch.

Quote:
The downside of this vanity driven effort, which comes in direct contradiction to the connections announced plans for the horse, is far greater than the upside.
I think there is more vanity driving the effort on this board to denounce this move, rather than that which prods the horse's connections along.

Quote:
Are those that don't like the idea rooting against Lava Man returning and competing at a high level or guaranteeing a devastating injury? No.. The argument against this derives from the potential that this has, however small or large, to be an embarrassment or humiliation for the game.
Embarrassment or humilation for the game...or for Old Friends (who have committed a lot of publicity--within the racing world anyways--to his retirement there)?

And while we're looking at the bigger picture here, holding his connections accountable for how this singular move might affect "the game", what sort of upside would the horse represent for the sport should he make it back and show ANY kind of winning form? What sort of boost would that be to proponents of stem cell therapy specifically and equine injury research in general?

brianwspencer 09-27-2009 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
name an example of a 9 year old that came back off a long layoff to compete at a graded level.
While I don't disagree with much of anything you're saying...since you asked, it's only been like two weeks since 9-year old Cloudy's Knight came back from over a year off to win a Grade III.

chucklestheclown 09-28-2009 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
And what he doesn't know is Lava Man personally. And what else he doesn't know is what sort of response the horse will have to stem cell therapy, very much in the fledgling stages. I understand he has a lot experience training racehorses, but he's reading the same news reports us Googlers are, and last time I checked, holding a valid trainer's license doesn't concurrently endow you with the skill or knowledge of veterinary medicine, never mind make you well-versed in stem cell therapy.



I don't know if anyone in this thread who supports this return to training could be labeled "excited". However, the detractors who try to make this more or less dime-a-dozen comeback story some sort of hot button issue by flame-throwing terms like "liar" and "dead horse" could possibly be considered to have their respective panties in a bunch.



I think there is more vanity driving the effort on this board to denounce this move, rather than that which prods the horse's connections along.



Embarrassment or humilation for the game...or for Old Friends (who have committed a lot of publicity--within the racing world anyways--to his retirement there)?

And while we're looking at the bigger picture here, holding his connections accountable for how this singular move might affect "the game", what sort of upside would the horse represent for the sport should he make it back and show ANY kind of winning form? What sort of boost would that be to proponents of stem cell therapy specifically and equine injury research in general?
DITTO. And good for Cloudy's Knight too, I guess I dropped him 2 years too soon.

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
And what he doesn't know is Lava Man personally. And what else he doesn't know is what sort of response the horse will have to stem cell therapy, very much in the fledgling stages. I understand he has a lot experience training racehorses, but he's reading the same news reports us Googlers are, and last time I checked, holding a valid trainer's license doesn't concurrently endow you with the skill or knowledge of veterinary medicine, never mind make you well-versed in stem cell therapy.



I don't know if anyone in this thread who supports this return to training could be labeled "excited". However, the detractors who try to make this more or less dime-a-dozen comeback story some sort of hot button issue by flame-throwing terms like "liar" and "dead horse" could possibly be considered to have their respective panties in a bunch.



I think there is more vanity driving the effort on this board to denounce this move, rather than that which prods the horse's connections along.



Embarrassment or humilation for the game...or for Old Friends (who have committed a lot of publicity--within the racing world anyways--to his retirement there)?

And while we're looking at the bigger picture here, holding his connections accountable for how this singular move might affect "the game", what sort of upside would the horse represent for the sport should he make it back and show ANY kind of winning form? What sort of boost would that be to proponents of stem cell therapy specifically and equine injury research in general?
Amazing that my qualifications are now the topic. How exactly do you know what i know? I do know that I know quite a bit about the practical application of Stem Cell therapy in equines due to the fact I have had horses in my care receive the treatment (the first one was years ago by the way-it aint that new), the fact that a close friend who happens to be a surgeon worked extensively on Stemcell research and has been one of its biggest proponents (and yeah maybe just maybe we have had a conversation about this and similar scenarios), and I am pretty sure that I know far more from a practical standpoint about veteranarian medicine than anyone here. The vain detractors like me are simply pointing out the issue is far more complicated than it seems and the therapy used is not only not groundbreaking or new it has been used on hundreds/thousands of other horses with varying levels of sucess. One thing that the Dr did tell me is how much more effective stem cell therapy works in younger horses. And 9 isnt younger. But my main point was that the odds of him coming back and competing at a high level are so remote that when weighed against the possibility of something really negative happening it just isnt worth it.

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianwspencer
While I don't disagree with much of anything you're saying...since you asked, it's only been like two weeks since 9-year old Cloudy's Knight came back from over a year off to win a Grade III.
Ok we have 1 out of hundreds of thousands. Any more?

brianwspencer 09-28-2009 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Ok we have 1 out of hundreds of thousands. Any more?
Just giving an example when an example was requested.

freddymo 09-28-2009 09:06 AM
[b]But my main point was that the odds of him coming back and competing at a high level are so remote that when weighed against the possibility of something really negative happening it just isnt worth it.B]They are going to try and race the horse again. The worst case scenario is they decide to place the horse in claimers, however distasteful that would be, he is a racehorse, deemed property by the law. If the horse is being well maintained and vetted appropiately they or anyone else that owns him can do what they like with him. Obviously they aren't spending 10's of thousands on stem cell crap to get him in 8k claimers. You and I have a better shot of getting into a car accident then this horse has of breaking down on the track. I really am fascinated by the rousing concern for a horse training for a comeback.

While there is zero chance I would ever have tried this don't you have to support the right for people to do what they would like with there horse? Who was taking there kids to see Lava Man at an old age home anyway???..Most people don't even see there own grandparents never mind a juiced gelding.

RolloTomasi 09-28-2009 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Amazing that my qualifications are now the topic. How exactly do you know what i know? I do know that I know quite a bit about the practical application of Stem Cell therapy in equines due to the fact I have had horses in my care receive the treatment (the first one was years ago by the way-it aint that new), the fact that a close friend who happens to be a surgeon worked extensively on Stemcell research and has been one of its biggest proponents (and yeah maybe just maybe we have had a conversation about this and similar scenarios), and I am pretty sure that I know far more from a practical standpoint about veteranarian medicine than anyone here.
When I say "fledgling" I mean to say that stem cell therapy is an emerging therapy, with research still ongoing and efficacy still being determined. This is especially true as far as it applies to joint therapy. As you said, many horses have received the treatment for other types of injuries such as bowed tendons.

As with most new therapies for basically "irreversible" conditions, vets and their clients get carried away and start using them unjudiciously, applying them where perhaps they don't belong or won't be as effective as in an ideal scenario, in hopes that they can "keep or horse going" or "shorten the layup time" or "make them a different horse".

Where does the Lava Man scenario fit? I suppose somewhere in the middle. As you said, his age to a fair degree makes him a less than ideal candidate. However, the fact that he received treatment under ideal conditions (ie, with primary surgical treatment first, subsequent stall rest, followed by a gradual return to training) makes him a case worth following.

I'm with you in that its very unlikely he'll return at a top class level, and I realize that is what his connections are gunning for, but from a sideline perspective I think it would be pretty signifcant event if he was able to return and be competitive at least in state-bred stakes, even if such success would ultimately be only a minor feather in his cap.

SniperSB23 09-28-2009 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
I agree O'Neill wouldn't intentionally endanger Lava Man. But I also thought that about his handling of Itty Bitty Pretty. And then she was dead on the racetrack... O'Neill, who already has a checkered resume, is opening himself up for a ton of criticism by agreeing to train him back. That's his decision and I believe it reflects poorly on him. But this set of connections has lied to the public once and shown poor judgment in a similar scenario. That is established and irrefutable. And the racing-interested public should be reminded of it broadly.
I'm not an O'Neill guy but he is in a tough position here. The horse is coming back no matter what he thinks about it. So wouldn't he rather have the horse in his barn where he can monitor it closely than let it go to another barn where he loses all control over the horse's fate? If Tracy Farmer went and told Nick Zito that he was bringing Commentator back would you really think Nick would refuse and let the horse go to another trainer? I think he would want that horse in his barn so he can closely monitor him instead of letting him go to another barn where the trainer might not be as emotionally attached to the horse and might take more risks.

Indian Charlie 09-28-2009 05:56 PM
Commentator was retired?

Riot 09-28-2009 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Amazing that my qualifications are now the topic. How exactly do you know what i know? I do know that I know quite a bit about the practical application of Stem Cell therapy .
So you know, of course, that you can't broadly and generally compare stem cell use in tendons to stem cell use in joints.

Riot 09-28-2009 07:25 PM
Quote:
But my main point was that the odds of him coming back and competing at a high level are so remote that when weighed against the possibility of something really negative happening it just isnt worth it.
Rechipping an ankle or developing a new OCD, while probably career-ending at this point, isn't something catastrophic. It would have to be something else.

Quote:
and I am pretty sure that I know far more from a practical standpoint about veteranarian medicine than anyone here.
You go with that.

King Glorious 09-28-2009 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Rechipping an ankle or developing a new OCD, while probably career-ending at this point, isn't something catastrophic. It would have to be something else.



You go with that.
I hate watching people not in the business tell people that are in the business stuff that they really know but those in the business think they can't possibly know it cause they aren't in the business. I'm going to take out an owner's license so that I can further comment on this story, from an in the business perspective.

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
So you know, of course, that you can't broadly and generally compare stem cell use in tendons to stem cell use in joints.
Yes and the success levels have still been pretty spotty especially in older horses with poor prior joint health. You know kind of like Lava Man?

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Rechipping an ankle or developing a new OCD, while probably career-ending at this point, isn't something catastrophic. It would have to be something else.



You go with that.
Do you really want to go there?

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
I hate watching people not in the business tell people that are in the business stuff that they really know but those in the business think they can't possibly know it cause they aren't in the business. I'm going to take out an owner's license so that I can further comment on this story, from an in the business perspective.
Why exactly do you think you are as qualified as a horse trainer or vet to speak about health issues regarding racehorses ? Your opinion is based strictly on what exactly? Articles in the Bloodhorse or DRF?

You are correct in your assumption that there are those within the industry that think they know a lot more than they really do. But that is a whole other topic.

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
When I say "fledgling" I mean to say that stem cell therapy is an emerging therapy, with research still ongoing and efficacy still being determined. This is especially true as far as it applies to joint therapy. As you said, many horses have received the treatment for other types of injuries such as bowed tendons.

As with most new therapies for basically "irreversible" conditions, vets and their clients get carried away and start using them unjudiciously, applying them where perhaps they don't belong or won't be as effective as in an ideal scenario, in hopes that they can "keep or horse going" or "shorten the layup time" or "make them a different horse".

Where does the Lava Man scenario fit? I suppose somewhere in the middle. As you said, his age to a fair degree makes him a less than ideal candidate. However, the fact that he received treatment under ideal conditions (ie, with primary surgical treatment first, subsequent stall rest, followed by a gradual return to training) makes him a case worth following.

I'm with you in that its very unlikely he'll return at a top class level, and I realize that is what his connections are gunning for, but from a sideline perspective I think it would be pretty signifcant event if he was able to return and be competitive at least in state-bred stakes, even if such success would ultimately be only a minor feather in his cap.
While i am as open minded as anyone in regard to new therapies and techniques, this entire scenario and the way it came about just feels like a mistake. The funny thing is that so many of the new things that come along that seem to hold up so much promise wind up as failures or simply as minor help. Radon seeds were the hot thing about 15 years ago. They were injected into troubled areas like curbs or splints and basically cured them right away. The problem was the damn things "aged" the bone and made it brittle. So when horses began snapping their legs off that new technology was suddenly not so hot anymore. While stem cell therapy is a much more advanced idea, it is still far from a miracle cure which is what he needs. I hope he doesnt breakdown because that is bad for all of us who love the game. But I remain skeptical that this situation will have the ending that will be positive.

GPK 09-28-2009 10:36 PM
You're a better man than me Chuck. Some people around here are enough to drive a man to drink.

Have a beer or 10 for me while you are at it.:wf

2MinsToPost 09-28-2009 10:43 PM
Every time, for the most part, that I see the name Lava Man I am reminded of a losing wager. Man I really thought that horse was a winner that weekend.

No matter, cause I did and still do love that horse.

Riot 09-28-2009 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Yes and the success levels have still been pretty spotty especially in older horses with poor prior joint health. You know kind of like Lava Man?
Really? That opinion is at great odds with the current accumulation of clinical experience as documented in the veterinary literature.

Riot 09-28-2009 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Do you really want to go there?
Yeah, I will. I'll take the opinion of the horses' vet, Doug Herthel, over yours.

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Yeah, I will. I'll take the opinion of the horses' vet, Doug Herthel, over yours.
Whatever. You and Dr Herthel can predict with accuracy the type of injuries that will occur? Yeah right. The rest of his legs and joints are still 9 years old and have been subject to lots of pounding. The most catastropic injuries usually occur when the horse appears completely sound. But of course with your vast experience you already knew that.

Cannon Shell 09-28-2009 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Really? That opinion is at great odds with the current accumulation of clinical experience as documented in the veterinary literature.
Some people read about things, some people actually do things. I prefer to listen to the latter.

Coach Pants 09-28-2009 11:58 PM
So she knows the vet? Definite hack fo' sho. Any human with a pulse is suspect when communicating face-to-face with that moron.


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