i always find it funny when people attack one party for doing something that both parties engage in. like i said somewhere above, gore compared the global climate debate to fighting nazis in world war 2.


neither party is better than the other. they both engage in the exact same practices, and both decry the other party for doing so....both sides have scandals, ethics problems and the like. both sides have cheaters, liars, and thieves. they both are made up of politicians, who would screw over their own mother if it got them re-elected. anyone choosing one party over the other is just choosing heads instead of tails. it's still a coin.

The job loss picture is slowing, stablizing. Those are the facts, based upon current data.

??? There are many state projects out there that have hired on - projects funded by stimulus money. Mostly road projects so far. Geesh, it's there in the news. There was just a huge article about it the other day (I'd have to google, it was on an internet news site like CNN or something) - about different states, what they have done with the initial stimulus money (again, mostly road projects).

and his overall budget is tremendously bloated. he's not fixing anything with what he's proposed. those numbers don't lie either. and i saw yesterday that positive job growth isn't projected for four to five years, which is why the 'good week' is nothing for me to get excited about. continued declines, albeit smaller, isn't a good thing. it's still a downward trend-not a plateau.

But you still vote, don't you? :tro:

job losses continue. the deficit grows, which the stimulus added to. if we are five years from job GROWTH, and our deficit continues to increase, how can you feel any confidence right now based on those two things? a few road projects don't reduce the deficit. overall, i think our economy is further battered by all the added spending.


are a few jobs added here or there, when the overall true unemployment rate is over 16%, worth our growing deficit?

i do. and i voted for a third party candidate for president this time around. i have never been a member of either party, and i have never contributed one red cent to a rep or a dem. i think both house and senate should have term limits, because i think the system is flawed. many new members go up there to change things, only to find it's impossible because of how business is conducted on the hill.

i do NOT believe in a party-i don't vote on party lines. i take each topic as it comes along, and have voted for a variety of candidates over the years. i believe in george washingtons line of thought on parties.

What should we do if we are five years from job growth? Just sit here and wait for it to happen? How will it happen if we are in a depression, or still in a recession?

Those "few" jobs here and there add up (the money is there to be spread over two years of it), and those jobs are sure important to the people that were unemployed two months ago, but have them now.

Is it your position that it would have been better to not spend that money, not improve our dangerously crumbling and outdated infrastructure (bridges collapsing on people, highway repairs, etc) and not hire those people?

Look at just the auto industry: what if, instead of stimulus, cash for clunkers, etc., the government did a complete hands off, and allowed the auto industry to fail?

Where would we be right now, six months later? Were would unemployement be? Would we be in a stabilizing recession, or would we have fallen off the cliff?

Clinton handed Bush a balanced, rapidly decreasing deficit, and Bush raised it to the highest deficit ever, and ignored a developing recession. Now we have to get out of it.

We are not in a place where hands off or cutting spending are really viable options at this time, and that's what most of the major economists have been saying all along.

If you want answers...


Look at Japan.


Then kindly stfu.

VS





I think one has a line through the Swastika while the other has it in it's ugly glory

Wait until November 3, 2010.

Yes, Dell, others have used swastikas to protest in the past.

Your contention was that nobody was doing it at town halls, now; and that people opposing healthcare reform were being called Nazi's.

forgive my pessimism, since it's my thinking that the govt got us into this morass in the first place. so far be it from me to think they can get us out of it. i also don't believe that job gains that may result from all this increased spending will turn out to be enough to tackle the resulting deficit. i think the increased deficit to new record numbers will be worse in the long run for us than adding a few jobs here or there, because of the harm it will do us overall. look at the talk right now about our ability to borrow.

legitimate spending where necessary is one thing, coming up with new programs that are tremendously expensive is absolutely ridiculous imo. like i said above, getting us out of the two wars that are one of the largest drains on our treasury would be a huge help.

most economists are saying our deficit is our number one biggest problem. obama is working on making that worse, not better.

You don't think that's what Pelosi meant?

four so far this year for them.

back in the '90's-they passed ten, costing over 100 trillion yen. none cured the recession.

As the Obama administration expands U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, military experts are warning that the United States is taking on security and political commitments that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the Iraq war.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32346408...shington_post/


just found this on my home page. well, isn't that just fantastic.



"Afghan forces will need $4 billion a year for another decade, with a like sum for development," said Bing West, a former assistant secretary of defense and combat Marine who has chronicled the Iraq and Afghan wars.

who called who a nazi means nothing- it's what the press does to get people angry about unimportant stuff so that they lose focus on what is important. reining in the spending and having common sense budgets is what matters.

>> forgive my pessimism, since it's my thinking that the govt got us into this >>morass in the first place. so far be it from me to think they can get us out of it.

You're certainly entitled to feel pessimistic, but who then will get us out? Ourselves? How?

>>i also don't believe that job gains that may result from all this increased >>spending will turn out to be enough to tackle the resulting deficit. i think >>the increased deficit to new record numbers will be worse in the long run >>for us than adding a few jobs here or there, because of the harm it will do >>us overall.

Fair enough. Economists debate the same. But where would we be without this spending? We can't just say "don't spend" and "stop spending and enlarging the deficit" without looking at what the consequences of not spending will do to us, too.

>>legitimate spending where necessary is one thing, coming up with new programs that are tremendously expensive is absolutely ridiculous imo.

I'm furious about Congress wanting to approve additional airplanes over what is being asked for - have you seen this story in the past couple days? I definitely have to start writing my Congressmen on this one. Yes, it's a small part of the budget overall, but it adds up.

The health care reform bills cost (using the current numbers that seem to be out there) is a trillion over 10 years, which is less than 1% of the budget. And the benefits to be derived, the cost savings, for millions of people that currently are an expensive drain on the entire healthcare industry, will help immensely.

And the humanity of the largest country in the world helping all it's own citizens counts for a hell of a lot, too. It has been recognized that this country needs to do something about healthcare for decades.

>>like i said above, getting us out of the two wars that are one of the largest drains on our treasury would be a huge help.

Great strides have been made in Iraq.

>>most economists are saying our deficit is our number one biggest problem. obama is working on making that worse, not better.

The budget deficit doesn't stand alone from the recession-depression-world financial situation, unfortunately. Nobody wants to grow the deficit blindly.

Are you talking about now? What are you talking about?

>> As the Obama administration expands U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, military experts are warning that the United States is taking on security and political commitments that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the Iraq war.

The President was elected on the promise of pulling out of Iraq and expanding into Afghanistan.

"I'm furious about Congress wanting to approve additional airplanes over what is being asked for - have you seen this story in the past couple days? I definitely have to start writing my Congressmen on this one. Yes, it's a small part of the budget overall, but it adds up."

yeah, obama wants to cut the f-22 for the navy, but wants to give the air force a plane they don't want. i haven't read the details, but i'd venture a guess they're made by two different contractors, and a senator wants the latter for his contractor....

well, by god, then spend away....:rolleyes:

I am talking about the airplanes Congress is getting for themselves - for taxpayer funded travel of Congressmen.

Yes, the F-22 should be cut, the Navy doesn't even want it.

i just looked up about the f-22...it was for the air force, not the navy. they're looking to move to the f-35 soon anyway. but i found it interesting that gates said they needed the money saved for the wars in iraq and afganistan. but i thought we were getting out of iraq?

I'm talking about the video I posted. I have no idea what she (Pelosi) thinks now (today), kind of like what 'is' means but a week ago it appears to me she was calling the well dressed old people showing up and God forbid dissenting from Obama's health care plan astroturf and swastika carrying shills. Like they can't possibly have an opinion opposite of her. She still needs to fess up on the whole CIA lie IMO.

Chamber of Commerce opposes Obama's plans
Group emerges as big defender of private sector against presidential ideas



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32347257...s-white_house/

wow another well dressed shill. Bet he has a swastika on his undershirt LMAO

So tell me, Dell - do you think every American is entitled to get excellent healthcare?

substitute buy for get and YES otherwise NO.

arguing the merits of the govt health care plan doesn't mean one thinks some should not be entitled to health care. i've interviewed people for jobs where i work, and unfailingly they say oh great when i say they can get health care. then when it comes time to apply for it, they turn it down. they want it, but they don't want to pay their (minute) part of the premium to get it. and then i get to hear how life isn't fair when they have to go to the emergency room.


one lady finally got it a year or so after she started working there-which meant she fell under the pre-existing clauses. a couple years later, and i still have to hear her complain how the ins won't pay for something that she got treated for before getting her coverage.
what worries me about any proposed plan is what happened in hawaii. they passed a plan to cover more kids, so a lot of folks who had coverage for their children cancelled and put them on the state plan, thus bankrupting it.

So, I must presume you are in favor of Medicare, Medicaid and Veterans benefits being rescinded, and we stop paying for health care for our fellow Americans that cannot afford it.

That would save us alot of money regarding the deficit.

Those people that can't afford the most expensive, overpriced, controlled health care in the world can just get sick and die, right?

If you lose your job, that means you can get sick or injured and not get treatment, too. You'd better hope the rest of your life goes perfectly, and you retire a very rich person ;)

It apparently does for Dell. That's why I asked.

[quote=Riot]The job loss picture is slowing, stablizing. Those are the facts, based upon current data.
QUOTE]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32349809...s_and_economy/


Though the unemployment rate dipped to 9.4 percent in July — its first drop in 15 months — economists predict it will start climbing again. Many, including people in the Obama administration and at the Fed, say it could still top 10 percent this year.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32314827...n_the_economy/


even if the economy quickly returned to the peak job creation performance of 2007, when the economy was adding roughly 400,000 new jobs a month, it would take more than two years to rehire the 7 million workers who lost their jobs to the recession.

Few economists expect a return to those 2007 growth levels any time soon.



you might want to wait for more than one weeks happy headlines before you start thinking we're out of trouble.

So what was Palin's lie? Cap and trade will be a big regressive tax that will hit people hardest who make well under $150/k a year. Same with healthcare. But the Obominator will smile and assure people their taxes won't go up. Just who in the hell do you think is going to pay for these policies that could bankrupt the country? I guess it will be the so-called white trash America that you speak of. Sounds like some racist issues on your part.

One of the biggest problems that our society has is that it is too willing to trust the mainstream media in regards to issues of the day. Far too many people dont have the patience or intellegence to actually understand what they are being fed is crap. At some point the news media stopped being journalists that took responsibility for what it reported and has morphed into what it is now which is more Pravda style. If Riot lived in N Korea she would believe that Kim Il Jong could kick Tiger Woods ass on the golf course.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...rea_06_16.html

No argument but personal insult left, huh? :tro:

[quote=Danzig
you might want to wait for more than one weeks happy headlines before you start thinking we're out of trouble.[/QUOTE]

I never said we were out of trouble. It will take 2-4 years until we are out of trouble. It will take a long time until jobs come back. The positives are that we haven't dropped off the "let's ignore it and let business find it's own level" cliff into the second great Depression, nor is the recession currently deeping. It appears at this time to be holding steady, with small positive indicators here and there.

We still haven't seen the credit card crash, nor commerical real estate.

Just pointing out the facts

Ok that last part was a joke right?

Why? Other than the typo, what's funny about the commercial real estate mortgage market crashing, just as the residential market did?

I misunderstood u as the commercial property market may have been more affected than the residential market. But those who had their eggs in one basket (a home they couldn't afford and those commercial investors leveraged to the hilt) can testify.