I'm not sure he had to re-break. He was just gliding along when Dunkirk made his move. It was obvious that Johnny V. knew he still had a ton of horse coming around the turn. He was looking around for Dunkirk and was waiting to push the button on this horse.

that track couldn't have been much better for a speed horse

there shouldn't be any debate about that. It was fast and horses were lasting.


Did they soup it up for Saturday? No. It was this bad on Friday. I didn't even check Wed or Thurs...

Quality Road ran a huge race and won. There is nothing whatsoever to take away from him. You can come up with fantasy tracks and fantasy trips, but you have to give credit to the horse who ran the actual race, when they run so great.
Dunkirk ran a huge race and happened to lose. He had to make a sustained move to tackle maybe the best rival, after that one had a dream trip and dream track, and he only lost by a couple lengths. What a great race that was.

The top two IMO both had the best 1 1/16th+ dirt preps we've had this year.
I don't know that I Want Revenge or Friesan Fire could have beaten them on a mythical "fair track".

It's not criminal to like both Quality Road and Dunkirk... seems as though we are trying split hairs on two talented horses.

:tro:

Who's cornered the market on playing both sides of the fence better than you?

Correct.

At least we have more than one interesting horse to debate this year!

(although, like Phil said, having a pace advantage is ideal and why I think Quality Road is the better horse ;) )

FYI. Quality Road's splits..

:23.3
:23.2 (:47.0-1st half)
:23.3 (:47.0-middle half))
:24.3 (:48.1-2nd half)
:12.2 (:37.0-Final 3f)

I said this last night... this year is more exciting than anything last year produced.

Yeah, I mean, that kind of looks like he had a lot left at the end after not-slow early and internal fractions.

I don't know. I can't help but think his win, as strong as it was, was at least slightly aided by the surface. If not, then people calling him a superhorse may not be speaking prematurely. And let's not forget this was his first start around two turns.

I just wanted to throw into the discussion something that's not relevant to these horses going forward. But, wasn't Desormeaux's last ditch flop aboard Theregoesjojo funny? He had given the horse basically no chance to win through the opening six furlongs, so he decided to "check" when "interfered with" wll the while being left behind.

Sometimes I think Desormeaux ought to pay trainers to use him.

NT

If it was a "normal GP surface" as you call it, those fractions wouldn't have happened.

It would have been a different race with probably the same outcome.

The horse is a fast-closing sprinter, but Kent's antics were laughable though not surprising.

You're taking another step that I'm not and some other people also are not.

We've all agreed that the track was fast. It was faster than normal, without question. However, you're assuming that because it was fast, that it favored speed. I think. If so, that's where we disagree.

I wish CJ would weigh in because he brought up on the PA hall of fame board that while the numbers were fast his figures had the pace being pretty soft. That explains, in part, how QR seemed to have a ton left at the quarter pole.

What I would grant is that the time had a lot to do with the track, but I don't think the sped up track had much, if anything, to do with Quality Road's victory.

NT

TGJJ got a really nice setup in the FOY, was able to close while saving ground and was guaranteed to be overbet in the Fla. Derby as a result. He's another in a solid list of horses in this crop who will make the Kings Bishop a really good race this year.

His 'antics' were smart.

I'm referring to him standing up and acting like he'd been interfered with. Are you?

Yes.. He knew his horse was about done. The top 2 did in fact pinch him off... Why not claim foul and hope the stand doesn't have the best view of it and gets it wrong? Wasn't going to happen in a race like this, but in an everyday situation, had a horse in Jojo's scenario finished better, he might very well get a move-up from the stews. I thought it was pretty cheeky and clever even though it wasn't going to go anywhere. It also endears you to the trainer/owner who know from a move like this that you're thinking about their interests.

Their interests? Come on Steve.

Well, his own as well. But plenty of guys just hop off and wouldn't have thought twice.

I seem to recall someone involved with Hossy's mystery horse galloping Easy Goer in the mornings, but I might be remembering that wrong.

Pletcher, the most visable and most industry-promoted conditioner in the sport, is supposed to be gracious about the situation. Owners can say whatever they want for the most part. Some you appreciate and understand better than others. Jess Jackson is a good example. He says ridiculous things about Curlin's legacy, and you nod and say "uh huh" because he knows nothing about the history of the sport.

Exactly. Warren is another guy who knows very little and is led around by the decisions of 'advisors'.

Perhaps I just don't hold Pletcher to the standards many others do. I expected him to make remarks like that. I would not have predicted the specific remarks, but they don't surprise me at all. I wouldn't think about it either way. There is no doubt that he has benefitted from the same circumstances -- but, the big difference? His horse got beat, so all bets are off so to speak. Why the surprise here?

For the most part I agree. I guess our reactions and the surprise factor is just different.

As far as "vintage" Pletcher, I don't know, yeah the dominance was there but there were also numerous other players ready to take the field. "Back in the day" -- would he/they have raced him back and looked to get into the Derby field? I don't know. I don't play the "what would they do" hypothetically game that well. It's far to hard in the claiming game, LOL.

Regardless, at this point it's all supposition.

Eric

I agree all things being equal. I just don't know anything about the decision making process, attitudes, mindset, etc. involved with the people in that camp. I don't know Todd, nor do I know the owners. However, often, the owners play the game very differently than anyone else. OTOH, they have no one to answer to. The conversation just goes 'round and 'round.

Eric

What if he had cost the horse 3rd?

those are some good finishing fractions... Didnt Cannon mention that there was a big tail wind on the back streach? Wouldnt that mean the wind was in their faces for the ride home? If so those are real quick fractions IMO.

I think head winds are in their faces. And tail winds are...well you get it.

thats what i said... Cannon mentioned the tail wind was on the backstreach..

so wouldnt there be a head wind in the home streach?

BLAZING fractions
 

for the last 3/8ths.

Quality Road 36.99

and Dunkirk 36.85



Big Brown came home in 38.08 in the 2008 Florida Derby

The Big 2 may have had the fastest come-home times since the track was re done , not sure. Obviously it's hard to get a lot out of it because the track was so fast , and horses weren't quitting.

Why exactly is he supposed to be gracious? I don't understand the big deal about what he said. Regardless of he was correct or incorrect in his take on the track, complaining about track conditions is something that trainers have been doing forever. And if Bill Murphy really said that the rains the previous Sunday were the reason for the speed of the track on Saturday, he deserves to be ridiculed.

The track was fair for Dunkirk all the way to the top of the stretch and then it became unfair. Right. If it had been a lesser horse than Quality Road up there, Dunkirk would have gone on by and Pletcher would have had nothing to say. Because it was a good horse that didn't stop running and outran him down the lane, something that could have possibly happened no matter what they were running on, it suddenly is to be blamed on the track.

Why didn't he just scratch then? He had seen all the races that day leading up to the Florida Derby. If he thought it was unfair, he should have scratched and then run in the Wood. I guarantee that Aqueduct would not have souped up their track for Wood day. They NEVER do that. Horses naturally run 7f in 1:20 and change on that track all the time so just because we saw the Carter go in 1:20.22 and the Bay Shore go in 1:20.67 in 2004, just because we saw the Carter in 1:20.46 and the Wood in 1:47.16 in 2005....we can't assume that they soup up on Wood day.

Carlsbad is going to win the Ky Oaks.

:confused:

Not that anyone would misconstrue your remarks as being " on the record " but how exactly are comments made on internet message boards allowed to be considered " off the record? "

Wait, didn't you just strike something you said from the record? :confused:







:D