I understand your points. I can still be correct in my statement based on when I was referring too. Hey Bern was very good in April and stunk by June. That happens to many horses including GG. Ilysium Fields got injured and we will never know but he was a very good horse in April.

Strangely enough, I kind of agree.

But I'm willing to freely admit that my thinking may be a product of the fact that I always liked Jazil from the beginning, rather than a rational, evidence-based conclusion...

...since he kind of wasn't actually that good in the big picture.

He was a neat horse who was good for what he was good for, and he was fortunate to have run a couple of decent races and to mostly inherit a Belmont Stakes in which it seemed like he was the only 12-furlong runner in the field anyway. I liked his Derby better.

As a three year old Jazil won the Belmont, placed 4th in one of the most KY Derbys in this decade, and finished 2nd in the Wood Memorial. He also was 2nd in an Allowance race. How is that a slouch?

How is agreeing with me strange? :)

Less to do with you than the fact that I made a Jazil joke and actually didn't mean it.

Though I do disagree with your entire premise in this thread, but I don't have anything to add.

Ouch! I'd like to think I bring a high level of energy to the Big Brown discussion.

I for one cannot wait until this discussion is over. So much time and print wasted about a bunch of bad horses. Frankly, who cares. The all sucked. I just hope to God that 2009 will bring something special.

"They all sucked" Nice contribuition. Hardly!

No need to and I certainly am not a Jazil expert, just the opposite. I only said he wasn't a slouch. I just thought he ran well in a very good derby field and had a fairly decent showing as 3 yr old including winning the grueling Belmont.

this makes me embarrassed that i have ever come close to agreeing with you on anything.
at any rate, i think hoy is curlins, but certainly i can't fault anyone for voting for brown.

There is no need to be embarassed. Plenty of other people have anonymously agreed with some of my opinions. :)

well, for what it's worth, i'd take jazil over da tara.

sarava

I never thought much of Jazil either, perhaps his reputation comes from being one of Better Than Honour's offspring.

Hasili's Cacique and Personal Ensign's Our Emblem were perhaps also more well known for being famous sons rather than what they did on the racetrack.

They also said the same thing or something simlilar about Azeri before she tried the colts, it's really easy to look good when you are racing against a subpar bunch of horses.

She may have, that is the dilemma here. Her connections decided to take the safe route and she never had a chance to try. I give Curlin's connections more credit because they did go out on a limb after all the indecision of starting in the Classic. I said this before the Classic, Curlin had nothing to lose running in it. Win he's a hero, lose you can blame it on the track. It did nothing to hurt his legacy in the end. By the way I am no huge Curlin fan, I think he's a very good horse, however the overused great tag that alot of the media and some fans used in describing him I thought was just a bunch of hyperbole.

what makes a horse great?

For me it's a horse that can capture one's imagination, a horse who can overcome unfavorable odds, who can obviously run fast under most if not all conditions, someone that wins in extraordinary manner in the highest competition. That's just off the top of my head, I may add to the list. If you look at the dictionary meaning of great the list is too long to be that precise. Everyone probably has their own interpretation.

Am I the only one who laughed reading this?

What makes you laugh? How many good horses have finished second or higher in an Allowance Race? The answer is MANY!

See a doctor and get that laugh fixed.

who fits that list better, Curlin or Zenyatta?

Curlin faced the highest competition, therefore he fits it better

what competition? who was the best horse Curlin faced this year in a race he won?

Yeah...no kidding. Finishing 2nd in an allowance is certainly not a qualification for a horse being good though.

My original comment about Jazil was that he was "not a slouch."

The Dirt Marathon would have been right up his alley. He was just born a couple years too early.

Einstein, Wanderin Boy, Well Armed, Asiatic Boy, Divine Park, Out of Control...

There's no evidence that Zenyatta's competition was better, so you have to assume these horses are just as good or better as the females Zenyatta faced.

I can only go on the records and none of those are legit grade 1 horses, Einstein on turf, maybe Well Armed at a mile.

Isn't it fair to say that Big Brown beat better horses than Curlin or Zenyatta? Here are just a few:

Colonel John
Proudinski
Cool Coal Man
Shakis
Macho Again
Visionaire
Da'Tara
Eight Belles
Denis of Cork
Tale of Ekati
Elysium Fields
Gayego
Anak Nakal
Dr. Cal
Coal Play
Hey Bern
Z Fortune
Ichabod Crane
Tomcito
Nistle's Crunch
Globalization
Silver Tree
Atoned
Crimsom Comic

This confirms what I believed to be true. Roller Doc is not serious. He's been playing with us this whole time. This list of the good horses the Big Brown beat confirms it 100%. All this time, I really believed he was campaigning on BEHALF of Big Brown but now I see he's against the horse. You had me going pal.

You can stop being condescending right now. I'm just saying this group as a whole were better than those faced by Curlin or Zenyatta. You are spinning it as this group is made up of "good horses" and those were not my words.

Can you just give me your short list of who either have beaten that compares with my list? After all I provided some names.

King Glorious, how about you respond with four horses beaten by Zenyatta and Curlin combined this year that would be better horses than these four:

Colonel John
Denis of Cork
Eight Belles
Tale of Akati

Those horses faced restricted company for most of the year. Under what evidence are they better? Colonel John is about as good as most of those 3 year olds, and he still finished midpack in the Classic.