Was Curlin heads and shoulders above the rest of his three year old crop? He ran 3rd in the Derby, won the Preakness by a head, got beat by a filly in the Belmont, lost in the Haskell, won a subpar GC Gold Cup by a nose and then won the BC Classic impressively. He may have been the best 3 yo but he was hardly a standout as he ran in 4 grade 1's for 3yo's and won 1 of them.

He was clearly the overall standout, even going into the Breeders Cup Classic where he went off at 4.4/1 odds - yes - no question.

I can see your point, but in my opinion he is head and shoulders the best horse of the crop based on what he did in the BC Classic. He certainly is the most talented horse of the class while Rags, Street S and AGS have all been retired. He's shown his versatilty by being able to handle most tracks and his durabilty by still racing today.

This I totally agree with. Most years, a horse with Big Brown's lack of experience and conditioning would have very little hope of hitting the board in the derby. But against this year's group? Uou cannot toss a horse with as much talent as Big Brown. He's really the only "wow" type talent that we've seen so far. Pyro and Colonel John have shown glimpses, but Big Brown hasn't shown a chink in his armour in the 3 races he's ran in.

You dont think coming down the stretch like he was running from an alligator as a chink in the armor, and also the fact that he has only three starts after a performance like he had at Toga is a problem?

Think about this, if his first race back wasn't rained off the turf, this horse wouldn't have even been considered for the Florida Derby. Dutrow lucked out here and while his race was impressive last time, what did he beat down in Florida? Gulfstream racing has been putrid this winter, and probably will be so for the next couple years. I am downgrading him based on that fact, plus the fact he ran a top that is absolutely HUGE for a 3 year old with obvious issues.

He can bounce to the moon and still win, but for me, I have alot of negatives on him (Distance, pedigree, sheet, lack of racing, running style), and few positives (power number last out).

I toss a horse like this 10 times out of 10. And at 2/1, with 19 other hilarious options, makes it every more worthwhile.

He may have been heads and shoulders above the crop at the end of the year but he still lost a whole lot of races to other 3 year olds to be considered vastly superior. It is easy to say this after he has continued to race effectively at 4 while the other 3 year olds are no longer here. But winning and winning decisively against other 3 year olds would be a benchmark for me to consider him head and shoulders above the other three year olds and in the four biggest 3 year old races he ran in he lost 3 of them and the one win was by a nose.

I disagree, by the end of the year he was decisively better than the other 3 yo's. His last three races to me clearly show Curlin as the standout of his class. Street Sense and Hard Spun plateaued, Curlin kept raising his game.
you say the Gold Cup was subpar, but he did beat the best older horse going at the time and the rest of the field was left in the dust and that performance earned him a figure better than anything Hard Spun or Street Sense earned all year. His Classic win said it all really.

Classic line, Scav. Well done.

His haskell loss showed you he was clearly what? The fact remains that he lost 3 of 4 races against 3 yo's in grade 1 races. Did you consider Sunday Silence head and shoulders better than Easy Goer? Probably not and he beat him 3 out of 4. He was a head bob away from being 0 for 4 in the big 3 year old races. The rest of the year counts too. He was clearly the best 3 year old in November and December.

he came back a different horse more mature, whatever, in the JCGC, and consistently performed at that higher level four consecutive times now.
to me there is no doubt who the best horse to come out of 07 was. Curlin is a standout. It was unclear during the TC season, but it didn't end up that way.

Without being a smart ass this time - I don't think it was unclear at all.

Hard Spun wasn't that much horse when he didn't make the lead - and when he didn't make the lead and raced wide over a live rail - he wasn't good enough to even hit the board in the Southwest Stakes.

Street Sense - I know I supposedly have a huge bias against him and all - but all of his good races came with the same illogically good trip.

Rags To Riches had a great route pedigree and a slow paced 12 furlong race was what she was tailor made for.

Curlin didn't always win when things didn't go his way - but he didn't need things to go his way to run big.

How many 3yo champions go through a season undefeated?

look, I feel Curlin is head and shoulders the best of the group.
its just for me I only became totally sure of that later in the year. If you were sure about it early on, good for you because you were right.

i agree with your assessment on him 100%, he was the only one that could win a race that wasn't handed to him.

I think you and I were among the very few on here last year that could see through the Street Sense mystique. why he went off as the favorite in the classic is a mystery to me, off of his loss to Hard Spun and his titanic struggle with Grasshopper.

........ i think he will be one of the biggest favorites we have seen in a while. whatever, if he loses its just another race for me to crumble up my tote. i think its a lock b.b / pyro exacta ( wow, that should pay alot )

You are out of your damn mind if you think BB is going to be 5/1. One good work out of him and he is easily 2/1, even with medicore works, he is 3/1

...... i forgot about arazi......... my buddy put 1 dime on him and stormed out of the casino for the rest of the day:rolleyes: prob F.P

Big Brown will be the favorite - of this I have no doubt.

i disagree. he beat hard spun in the fall by about the same margin as street sense in the spring-the same street sense who finished behind hard spun more than once. they all took turns beating each other (don't forget hard spun was ahead of curlin in the derby) and beating a woefully inadequate group of older horses in the classic.
the only reason anyone would call curlin head and shoulders above the rest is that he remains in training, for the moment.
i'd call last years crop better than average, as there were several who ran top races-but i'd also say they were all pretty even talent-wise. no absolute stand out from last year imo.
also, don't forget this is curlins second year racing, he didn't race at two like some of his peers. also might have to give the nod to street sense really as far as overall talent, as he was the champ at two, and then won the derby.

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

AGS obviously got out-tripped in the Tampa Derby - Grasshopper was lightly raced and was to short on foundation to be expected to hold off a Derby winner at 10f's - even that Derby winner.

Rags didn't have a great trip in the Belmont - but a slow paced 12 furlong dirt race is what she best projected for in my opinion.

i just think that it was a pretty even crop-they each won a good race, but no one really showed dominance. running at four does not automatically make a horse 'better' than his peers who have retired-as if the horse has control over that.

No one said he wasnt the best horse in the end but he was far from undefeated, especially against the three year olds. He lost the derby, he lost the belmont, he won the Preakness by a nose, he lost the haskell. That is NOT heads and shoulders above anybody. Did he wind up as the best horse? Yes. But to say he was heads and shoulders above the other three year olds is hindsight. He ran in six 3 yo stakes i believe and lost half of them. The win over Lawyer Ron was nice but Lawyer Ron was beaten badly by the other three year olds next out so he is a poor measuring stick. He was very good in the BC and i guess these days thats all that counts. He would be heads and shoulders against this group this year.

You act like he wasn't clearly the best horse coming into the Derby - and you act like you didn't even bother to watch any of those four races you speak of - just happened to notice the final results.

He had an impossible trip in the Derby, he was MUCH better than his margin of victory in the Preakness, he was caught inside behind a slow pace in the Belmont and still answered the bell, and he had an impossible task in the Haskell racing wide off of a layoff over a track where the rail was extremely live.

If you want to pretend like that series of four races proved that he wasn't conclusively better than the rest of the 3yo males - go on.

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

You are absolutely correct in modern day thinking. It is not what they did, it is what might have happened if everything worked out. You have a huge career in the breeding business (horses)

i was replying to a comment that said no one but curlin won without a race being handed to them, i disagree with that contention. the season lasts all years, regardless of how each horse started or finished it, you have to consider the entire season.
also, keep in mind that curlin was not the only one to defeat older, hard spun and any given saturday did as well. i think it was a level crop, with curlin only getting a nod now because he is still racing. of course you can only speculate on how good the others would be-but i don't think you can knock them back a few pegs on how they did last year, due to the fact they aren't racing this year.
the breeders cup had the same hard spun, street sense, etc that curlin faced all year. the older horses were laughable last year.
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

First of all I think the 3 yr old crop of 2007 was one of the deepest crops we have seen in awhile, but I am curious do you really believe that Hard Spun's Gr.2 Kentucky Cup Stks win or Any Given Saturday's Gr. 2 Brooklyn Hdcp against older compares to Curlin's Gr.1 wins in the Gr.1 Jockey Gold Cup and Breeders Cup Classic?

Second point I would like to address, is yes Curlin is still racing. But it is not without risk of tarnishing his reputation. Horses that prematurely retire avoid the risk of exposure. We won't know this about the others, but Street Sense rode a 2 horse losing streak into retirement, Rags to Riches lost in the Gazelle before retiring. Though it can be argued that these horses had already peaked or caught favorable scenarios or not. One thing cannot be argued is Curlin continued to ascend in his performances. Aren't traits in consistency and durabilty in a racehorse a sign of superiority?

Finally we can nitpick over individual races at nauseum, however certain races carry more weight and whether we like it or not, The Breeders Cup Classic is the defining moment when comparing these horses. All of the horses had long campaigns, I'm sure if Street Sense had won the race we would not be arguing who was the best 3 yr old of 2007? Wouldn't we? But the fact is none of the others were in the same league of Curlin that day, objectively to ignore that, I believe one is not truly examining all the factors at work here nor are they are accurately weighing them.

i agree with you on the depth of the crop. my contention in this discussion is that curlin is not 'head and shoulders' above his peers.
also, the breeders cup is a defining moment, but i would disagree that it is THE defining moment. i would also take a moment to remind everyone that street sense was a top horse two years running, and now curlin has the chance to show the same thing. also a reminder that street sense did something no horse had done before, in winning the bcj and the derby. i would disagree that no horse was in the same league as curlin, with the second place finisher in the derby also the second place finisher in the bcc. discussing weaknesses in a horses rivals does not make a horse look better.
case in point- you mention rags' loss in the gazelle- that being the same rags who beat curlin at belmont. i would say that every horse showed some tenacity, and every horse also showed moments of weakness. i am taking nothing away from curlin by saying he was better-but not head and shoulders better.

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

When did they eliminate a field bet with 14 entries? I think it was right after FP, give or take a year. The days of a .90 favorite are likely gone with 20 seperate entries. I think BB will go off in the 3-1 range when it's said and done.

This is more of what was discussed a few weeks ago whereby any trip cap post mortum allows the annointing of whomever the advocate cares to advance. It's you doing the pretending by being unable to take out of the equation the post-Derby knowledge... Trot out whatever after-the-fact conclusion you want to, but Curlin wasn't "clearly the best horse coming into the Derby."

Not to mention Curlin ran two pretty nice races over in Dubai.

Sorry---when you are caught cheating as many times as Assmussen has been, I choose not to believe a SINGLE accomplishment on its merit.

Not saying Curlin would be a $5k claimer in another barn but I can't dignify his efforts when he is managed by a cheater like Steve A.

It is of my opinion that the effect of drugs on top class horses is a lot less than people make it out to be. It is certainly a factor on claimers but when it comes to the big guns I don't think the trainers take the big risks. How else do you explain the tremendous day that Asmussen and Dutrow had in Dubai where everything is banned?

I realize some people have a hard time rationally discussing Curlin because of an extreme distaste for his trainer and/or owners. I have no interest in the drug/breeding/connections aspect of all this. It's irrelavant to my main point which is that Curlin was no doubt the best performer of the 2007 3yo's.