does that mean none of us can ever form an opinion about anything we ourselves have never done?

steve, it's been fun...but it looks like this board will be shutting down, since none of us have ever been a horse, most have never trained, been a jock, or owner, or groom....or football player, politician, water boy, writer, actor, director, etc etc.

camera adds, what, 10-15 pounds...

at least he's not a cross dresser like The Green Monkey

h.g.h

I think there is something interesting at Gulfstream Saturday concerning racing's newly anointed " greatest trainer " ( by racing's personally anointed " racing genius " ). Understatement debuted on February 7th at 6F and won impressively for trainer Todd Pletcher, who unlike previous years, has few, if any, hopefuls for the TC races. Just three weeks later Understatement is going right from that 6F race to a 1 1/8 mile race which has the feel of a Florida Derby prep for this horse.....which of course, if successful, would be a KY Derby prep for Understatement. Thus, we are now to believe that the many years of developing even a reasonable foundation for a horse was completely wrong, and that rushing one from a three quarter mile race to distance races in a mad dash to make a " big " event is actually the proper way to handle a thoroughbred.

Todd Pletcher is a very good trainer, with an incredible operation, but even if you want to completely pin this on an overzealous owner, it is a bit head scratching. How many good horses have been ruined this way? I don't know the answer....but I know that number had exponentionally increased in recent years. Coincidence?

I took a quick look at the Condition Book. I don't think there's a n1x going short until mid-March. Maybe that's a factor....

No doubt, Bruce, that Gulfstream doesn't help, but there are other racetracks and, maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe this rush job is in the best interests of any horse.

Plus, I imagine there could be an extra race at 7F or one mile for NW1X if someone asked.

I'm sure that's true. I guess if I was the owner and had $1 Million + into this horse (or the trainer) and looked at how Curlin, Street Sense and Barbaro got to the TC, I'd be hard pressed not to take a shot. All three of these got there non-conventionally...

Curlin did......and he was one in a million so to speak. Street Sense and Barbaro? They had very strong bases to build in.

This is not a question of unconventional. This is overzealousness. Good luck to them.

Foundation wise, yes Curlin only. But while Barbaro (5 weeks) and Street Sense (two preps) both had foundations, they each defied conventional wisdom in their own ways.

Who knows? But I think people are more likely to take their shots than a few years ago....

Thats funny...Thanks for starting my day out with a smile Hooves. :)

8th Race. (C3) Post 4:50PM ALLOWANCE
Purse $41,500 (Plus $5,500 F.O.A. Winner Supp.) 1 1/8 Miles
For Three Year Olds Which Have Never Won A Race Other Than Maiden, Claiming Or Starter or Which Have Never Won Two Races.
1 COOL GATOR (L) '05 C E34 118 Prado, E Hillsbrook Farms Vella, D
2 JACK'S ELEVEN (L) '05 C R19 118 Maysonett, F Kelly, P Mongeon, K
3 NISTLE'S CRUNCH (L) '05 C R24 118 Lezcano, J Alien Farm LLC and Furst, Alan McPeek, K
4 JAZZAHOLIC (L) '05 C 0 **111 Lopez, P Delany, Brian and Plummer, Diana L. Catanese, III, J
5 UNDERSTATEMENT (L) '05 C R31 118 Velazquez, J WinStar Farm LLC Pletcher, T
6 EXTREME FROLIC (L) '05 C R29 118 Cruz, M Stride Rite Racing Stable, Inc. Wolfson, MW
7 SAMBA ROOSTER (L) '05 C R32 122 Castro, E Off The Hook LLC Wolfson, MD
8 MAMBO MEISTER (L) '05 G R29 118 Castellano, J Cavanaugh, James R. and Pallas, Chris Gleaves, P
9 BORDEAUX BANDIT (L) '05 C R34 120 Bravo, J My Meadowview Farm Zito, N
10 AQUARIAN (L) '05 C R29 118 Coa, E Farmer, T Zito, N


Is going from a 6f mdn win to a 9F NW1X Alw all that unusual??....I'd think that I'd rather see that as opposed to going from a mdn win directly into a Stakes race.

Horse Growth Hormone?

Barbaro was a 2 turn sw at 2, albeit on grass. He won a route stake (Tropical Park Derby) on Jan 1 or 2 before moving to dirt. He had far more foundation than this colt of Todd's. I agree with BTW, if they want a race, ask for one. I suppose that last Sunday's race with WP was unacceptable as he'd have had 0 chance to win and that hurts Todd's percentage. FG, OP, AQU and SA have allowance programs. He can ship, I presume? Agreed, it's strange. I think Todd is "pressing" a bit with this one.

You are not telling me anything I don't know. I know all about Street Sense and Barbaro's race history.

As far as shipping, can you tell me how many 2-turn n1x's FG has in the next couple weeks? Save your time, there's none.

I also know when Gulfstream moved the Florida Derby into Late March/Early April, people said it made the race irrelevant and whined about how Stronach was ruining the TC prep season. It took exactly two runnings until Barbaro won in Lousville off the FL Derby. So, all of a sudden not only is the FL Derby relevant, it also showed you can win with a prep 5 weeks out.

That defied "conventional wisdom," did it not??

Then Street Sense won off two preps. Leading up, a lot of people derided his people because it had been 50 (?) years since a horse had won off such a soft 3 yo prep season.

So, it is not solely about the Curlin as an exception, is it? The three arguably best 3 yos of the past two seasons all achieved unconventionally. And did so differently.

This is what encourages people to try to do the same.

My question for you is do you really, truly and sincerely think Pletcher is running in this race to keep his percentages up??

You can't really be serious about him running here to duck War Pass, can you?

That War Pass race was scheduled 16 days (and run 17 days) after this horse's debut. Do you know Pletcher's horse had his last work THE DAY AFTER THE WAR PASS RACE WAS SCHEDULED TO RUN?

I don't at all disagree that Understatement is on a likely over-ambitious schedule.

But there is more to trying to defy conventional wisdom than just Curlin. There is also Street Sense and Barbaro.

And Pletcher ducking War Pass? Maybe he would have if it was ever possible they'd have run on the 2/23-34.

Anyhow, good luck today...

I don't know if I would say that Barbaro and Street Sense defied "conventional wisdom." They were doing things differently than other Derby winners to be sure, and that attracted some doubters, but I don't think very many serious horse players thought that they were coming into the Kentucky Derby without the proper foundation. They both had solid 2yo campaigns that left them more than prepared to be ready to go early in their 3yo years without a lot of "preps."

I would NOT be shocked if a lot of other horses won the Kentucky Derby in the future with resumes that look similar to Barbaro and Street Sense.

What Curlin did last year was remarkable, and I seriously doubt if that pattern becomes a trend in the same way that the path of the other two might. Also, while Curlin's 3rd place performance in the Derby last year was a heck of a race by him, it might be worth pointing out that he still didn't win the race. He sure looked a lot better in the Preakness after he too, had a more solid foundation.

I realize we're talking about Understatement here, but I hate that post for Bordeaux Bandit... isn't doing him any favors at all.

I'll have to place a name bet on Cool Gator, especially since Prado is aboard and he's coming from an inside post. ;)

and of course pletcher and winstar can afford to take the risk, the rewards (IF lucky enough to get any with this horse) would be astronomical.
but i doubt they could say with a straight face that they have the horses best interests in mind here. but at this time of year, with a promising three year old, who does?

and of course no surprise when i go to the pedigree page, he's by distorted humor. one start. one win. oh, a derby horse.:rolleyes:

c'mon, he's with asmussen.

it's only
Hay. Good Hay.

Curlin was always a big boy...

The scratch of Samba Rooster just helped Understatement ( not that it matters one way or another ). Obviously Bordeaux Bandit is also out for tomorrow's race.

Did just catch John Velasquez fibbing away on some new OTB show. According to him he studies his mounts in the DRF the night before the races, and reiterated that he was glad he did before today's show, and then proceeded to give misinformation about the careers of the first two mounts he was asked about. But, he did mention how much help the jockey's need.

Andy...you think many jocks do that?

Yes he is large.
Its just he looked like he
had a submarine girth.
His lungs must be begging to
break out of his chest.

I guess its a matter of what he ran
against. Do they have any big slow horses
over there? The computer must enhance
size as Z said.

No.

He has always been huge.

Lawyer Ron is about 16.1 hands, and Curlin swallowed him up in the JCGC. Lawyer Ron also has an enormous stride.

Rags to Riches is about 16.2-16.3, and one of the most muscular fillies you will ever see. They are about the same size height wise and as far as length of stride goes (judging from the Belmont Stakes), but Curlin is still more muscular than her.

I saw him in all those races.
He was muscular and big.
But he know seems to have a giant
girth. Not fat. Just lungs. I wonder how
much more he weighs...?

Good call BTW. I didn't know that you knew about that stuff. The truth is a lot of trainers make moves like this, and you know it. Take Curlin for example or Bellamy Road. Racing a mile and a quarter off of a huge layoff is not my idea of a good training job. Racing Curlin in 5 races in 15 weeks is not my idea of a good training job, even though Curlin was able to withstand it because he is a freak. Moves like that ruin a lot of horses. Moves like the one Pletcher made with that horse ruin a lot of horses. Racing horses back too soon when they just run a really hard race ruins a lot of horses. Take Indyanne or Magnificence for example. Does this mean these guys are bad trainers? No (even though Asmussen or Headly wouldn't ever get near my horses). It just means that they may be recieving a lot of pressure from clients, or they may get a little bit too overzealous.

I've even seen Mandella make moves with horses that were puzzling, and he is a great trainer. He loves his horses, and I truly believe that he does what he thinks is best for them. Probably my favorite trainers are Frankel and Tagg.

I can't deny that Pletcher is the best trainer in the country right now. He wins, and wins, and wins. Sure he makes mistakes...all of them do. All of them have ruined horses for one reason or another...whether it be poor judgment on their part or going with what their clients say so they don't lose the client. But, Pletcher wouldn't be at the top if he wasn't great. He wouldn't have gotten the caliber of horses that he did and the clients that he did in the first place if everyone didn't think he was an outstanding trainer. He has proven results.

I am hardly a racing genius. In fact, I don't know anyone that is a racing genius. It is impossible for me to consider anyone a genius in horse racing because most aren't even right 50% of the time. Another attempt to be picking...

I don't dislike you at all, but I really don't understand you sometimes or why you make the remarks that you do....

Times have changed. Gone are the days of the truly great horses. Gone are the days of horses like Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid. Gone are the days of horses that can handle the TC or stay sound enough to race as a four year old.

That is why in ten years, I say that Curlin will be considered a great horse. Because we will rarely ever see a great three year old race as a four year old. He is doing the unthinkable...we are seeing a shadow of the true greats in him. He is taking racing back in time.

I think Curlin is a great horse. He is in that same realm as the great horses of past years even though he didn't have the foundation necessary to win the Derby, and ran into another freak in the Belmont. He is that talented, and of the right type. He looks like one of them. If he races throughout the year (holding my breath...probably won't, but I didn't think he would ever run in Dubai), I think he will establish himself as such. In my eyes, he is exactly what racing needs, and I thank Jess Jackson for letting us see him this year(even though we don't know the real motive unless he is being sincere).

If he races throughout the year, it will be one heck of a ride. I obviously wasn't around in the 70s, and he is giving me a glimpse of what it was like to be around when those horses were running. When I see him, I almost get teary eyed in awe...I know that I am witnessing something phenomenal. He gives me that high.

How many horses in today's racing world would still be sound enough to go a mile and a quarter off of a long layoff carrying that much weight...winning on top of it all after a very tough 3 year old season, and still be able to win the Dubai World Cup? If he wins in Dubai, it will truly be something special.

I think that it is a little unfair to say that Curlin won't be considered great just yet...

By the way, great horses that have not won the TC.
Spectacular Bid among many others....

Great horses that haven't won the Derby...
The Grey Ghost, Man O' War, Seabiscuit, Cigar, etc.....

Does anybody have the cliff notes to those two gargantuan posts? I only made it as far as the inane comparison to Bellamy Road before I vomited and moved on.

you made the right move:rolleyes:

that's just it...those of us who saw racing in the 70's know that curlin is nothing of the sort, and doesn't deserve to be mentioned as rekindling that era. or the early 80's for that matter.

you mean you made it past 'i didn't know you knew that stuff'?

in a nutshell btw, curlin and rags are freaks. amazing stuff really.

Whew.

i'm just wondering how someone who didn't see the 70's can then say this is a glimpse of what it was like. it's nothing like it at all.

also hard to judge when he's ahead of the rest of the field. the one that stood out to me was kelly's landing, remember they had to adjust the gate to get his butt in there?

Who in the new millenium has been most similar to those in the 70s?

I think Hard Spun. He won graded stakes sprinting and routing.

most similar...oh lord, that's like comparing todays cars to those of the 50's and 60's. none today are like those.


i just don't see how you can compare todays horses to those of the 70's, when you admit you never saw them back then. if you had seen them, you'd realize how ludicrous it is to say that curlin is a throwback to that time.