i think you've gone on a tangent with this post. and this type of argument reminds me of the typical 'if you don't like ___, then leave the country'...or when a program looks like it won't pass, so people are accused of not wanting to help the children. or when bush said if you're not for it, you're against it. but then you also argue that if someone questions polytrack, they don't care about a horses safety, so at least you're consistent.

like i said, posts ago, no doubt improvements could be made. i just don't think a national healthcare system as proposed by hillary would be a solution. i would rather see a solution to the problem, then a program along the lines of social security.

actually, health care probably could be paid for with what we already pay to the govt. other programs would have to be cut. IF they did come up with a viable health care plan, medicaid/medicare would no longer be necessary (i'd assume)...and it would be nice if pols would put the necessities of life first, and maybe cut the foreign aid budget, or bs pork barrely spending for their home states. once upon a time, afghanistan got more of our money than any other foreign country--an attempt by us to buy favor. that worked well.....:rolleyes:

i read an article the other day that talked about our military budget. it's astronomical. of course i always knew it was fairly high...but it compared what we spent to our next closest 'competitor', china. the gap between us and them is beyond huge. and a lot of that is wasteful--look at the v-2 osprey program. no telling how much that has cost over the years, and the damned thing still doesn't work right.

but it's a pipe dream to think that taxes wouldn't go up tremendously to fund national healthcare. and who will get stuck holding the tab yet again? those of us in the middle class, as always. and then the middle class gets accused of being selfish, while footing the majority of every bill the 'govt' pays.

tony and i were like that for years. we struggled for a long time after we got married. money was tight, paycheck to paycheck just like you wrote. but we had insurance. it was never given a second thought, and never considered as anything other than an absolute necessity.
you hear a lot of talk about those withou coverage--but how many of the people without coverage truly have no alternative? how many without private insurance are covered thru the medical plans already in place?

^^^MILT site shut down.

Well,I don't even know if it implies to you(Christianity.) I do think people who are against universal healthcare are against it due to the 2 reasons I mentioned(don't like the poor,or are simply selfish.)Christ warned against both.The reason I bring it up is because this religion is constantly brought up during an election year.I just think people accent only the parts of the religion they like.I think people against universal healthcare are on the exact opposite side Christ would take(based on pretty much everything he said.)Really though......o.k.,look,we are paying twice as much per person(compared to other industrialized nations) for our care.Do you really think we are getting our moneysworth here?If it's not all mainly due to lawsuits,and defensive medicine,or waiting lists (in other countries)then we have a huge problem here.There is no way this hi cost of care can continue.Regardless of whether we have universal care or not,we have to start spending what other countries do per person(half what we spend.) It's not a choice.Baby boomers are gunna start retiring.The price of medical care will have to be controlled.There simply won't be enough people paying payroll taxes to keep up with the medical costs of the country.It doesn't add up.They aren't gunna raise taxes on the wealthy.So,what are they gunna do?

People bitch about the teachers' union. The most destructive union in the world is the AMA. They have successfully blocked every and all attempt not just at universal care but any kind of reform. The bigger problem is HC reform .... how care is delievered and what happens to that point.

The AMA limits med school entrants, then encourages people to quit during residency. Choke down the supply of doctors, and ensure that their costs remain high. They limit the number of jobs (even routine work) that can be done by non-doctors.

Most important, the AMA insists on self-policing, and has a code of silence, even for incompetents.

Guaranteed jobs for doctors, and screw the public good.

A book I have, written by a guy named Coddington called The Crisis in Health Care: Costs, Choices, and Strategies, predicted these outcomes under our market-based system:

More than 40 million uninsured
Continued gaps in safety net coverage
Double-digit health plan rate increases
Smaller employers cutting coverage or even dropping health plans
Increased co-payments and deductibles for employees
Large rate increases for private insurers in shrinking markets
Numerous failures of HMOs and withdrawal from the market by larger insurance companies
Continued cost shifting in an increasingly fragmented market
Continued inflation of health care costs

This book was written in the late 70's.

There is only one way to move toward universal HC and that is to open Medicaid/Medicare to buy-ins. But the stakeholders, especially the AMA are not going to let this happen until their last ounce of blood gets spilled. They have too much at stake. Why would they give it up willingly? Of course they won't.

The insurance companies are not the true bad guy here. The AMA is.

You won't see univ HC until these two things happen:
1. The US public becomes far less tolerant of the uninsured issue than it is now.
2. You bust the AMA.

F'k all the doctors and med students who moan about working 60 hour weeks to support their family and because their job demands it. Bullshit. Lots of people work big hours. You do what you need to do to be successful.

And double F'k the ones who cry about their student loans.

good luck.

I think the whole thing about a shortage of doctors is total bullshit.If you get the AMA to stop artificially limiting the number of doctors,then there would never be a shortage.They've worked so hard to make it a glamour job that it would take generations before people stopped wanting to be doctors.Look at these other European Countries(with national care.)They have the same (or more) # of doctors/1000 people.She is full of ****,and lies.Other than in the E.R.,and Surgery,we don't need all these doctors.You probably get touched more in a 1 night stand than you do by all the doctors you've ever seen in examining rooms.Give nurses specialized training,and let these greedy people go into designing video games.Start with these Psychiatrists that are bolted to these chairs behind the desk.Any nurse (with a Psychiatrist in charge of them) could do what these "doctors" do.

I'm sorry, but I don't want anyone with less than a 3.45 GPA in their undergraduate program even being given the opportunity to go to any kind of med school, OD school, PharmD school, Dentistry school...etc. Doctors already screw up enough as it is...

UNC Chapel Hill statistics

Average entering medical school GPA: 3.65
Average entering PharD school GPA: 3.5

I don't think that is too outrageous. If it was really that competitive, shouldn't the GPAs be higher? Our medical school is #2 in the nation for primary care. #23 in the nation for research. Our pharmacy school is number 4 in the nation.

I am not full of ****. I studied Medical Geography intensively last semester with one of the best professors in the country. She was the first ever to receive a doctorate in that field, and has also taught at UCLA. I learned the demographics of disease throughout the world, and the United States has far more degenerative health problems and psychiatric health problems than the other countries that you mentioned. As a scientist, I ask why? What is the significance of the statistics, and what are the reasons behind the statistics. Statistics are often biased and meaningless, just as maps are... The numbers aren't that important unless you also look at the reasons why, and do your own research. I'll give you an example of the shortage of doctors. There is a big shortage of ODs and ophthamologists right now. In GA, there is 1 OD per 10,000 patients. There just aren't a lot of people that go into those fields. It has nothing to do with the AMA limiting applicants to go into optometry or ophthamology.

And I think that you have a psychiatrist mixed up with a psychologist. Psychiastrists prescribe medications, interpret electroencephalograms...etc.(let's see a nurse do those things). Psychologists are your counseling doctors. Psychiatrists are the ones that take care of people in mental institutions, and those that have diseases like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder...etc. They are very much needed in our society.

Nurse anesthetists make over 200,000 dollars a year. PA's make 100,000+ dollars a year. They went to school longer, so they are compensated for their work. MDs go to school for 12+ years, so they should be compensated for the extra training. If a nurse goes to school for more than 4 years, they should be compensated for the extra training. Anyone that has eight years of official training is considered a doctor. In no way should a nurse ever be able to prescribe medications because they would have to go to school for that long to be able to do it, which=doctor.

Also, colleges are not equipped to handle but a certain number of entering medical school students. Even huge medical colleges like Duke and Chapel Hill have to limit the number of applicants because there isn't enough equipment, enough space, or enough other doctors to take the time out of their work days to teach more students. These doctors need to be seeing patients with the shortages. Plus, who in their right mind wouldn't want to limit the applicants to the exceptional individuals? I don't want some dumb ass working on me or doing my surgeriesIt is an intensive program. Very intensive, and it should be.

Otherwise, who cares about all the people's lives that they would **** up by prescribing wrong medications and making wrong diagnoses right? (being sarcastic)

I asked my mom if doctors should make every bit of money that they make (I asked her because she works with them 5 days a week), and she said absolutely. They put in the time, they dedicated their lives, they went to college for that long, many of them work 80+ hours a week, and they should make the kind of money that they do. So, I don't think that it is right for anyone who doesn't know about the profession to be bad mouthing doctors just because they make more than the average person, and because they are against universal health care since it would make their jobs a lot more difficult for less pay.

Well I asked my wife the same thing and apparently some do and some dont. Just like most other jobs. There are so many specialists that make far too much money, and so many GP's who work their butt's off and dont make enough. There are many rural areas that need GP's badly. But everyone wants to be some sort of specialist. And the bottom line is they need to want to take care of folks.

The AMA is a union for Doctors, not patients.
Most teachers unions are for teachers, not students.

no one is denied healthcare
 

this is all FDR's fault. employers had to offer benefits to attract employees because taxes were at 90% or something evil like that.

then everyone didn't care how much it cost because they had/ have insurance

and the government loves that everything is going up. They get a percentage you know.

but now friends of uncle Joe want to kill the golden goose

i'm getting a ph.d. in something important and my mom invented both medical school and socialism.

that's just in case anyone questions my credentials.

anyone who posts below this has a serious mental illness. those who posted above should have their blood sugar levels checked.

my mom could kick your moms butt!


my blood sugar is fine, so i must be mental.

If we have a serious mental illness, can we be covered by socialized medicine?




Will there be group rates???

You are a champion of the human race.

To have figured so much out so early in life is astonishing.

Maybe you should be a counselor.

I know exactly what Psychiatrists do.They prescribe medications that usually don't work,or don't work as well as they would love for people to think.They basically get people into a chronic state.That's what they do.They don't "cure" people very often.Tell me how they should get paid well when they don't get great results? That's a job a psychologist or nurse could easily do with minimal extra training.Everything you've written on this thread points out the huge problem we have in this country with the physicians thinking they should get rich off sick people.People should get rich off of luxury items(not by forcing the cost of a necessity thru the roof.)Like it or not,this will have to stop.The AMA is gunna have to be beaten.They've had their way,and it's going to stop.We're going to get some reasonably priced help in this country.So,if you want to be a rich bitch go into a field involving luxuries.They've "managed" the patient side all they can.Now it's time somebody managed the other side. They are going to have to get the costs down.The pigs to the trough is gunna have to end.Go into something else,because the time has come to put an end to greedy people as caregivers.The country is going to stop you from keeping costs high.The best way to do that is to pay for students training.This way we stop making it such a glamour position.No longer will this mainly be reserved for the rich kids in the society.Others will be able to go to medical school.There are plenty of people kept out by limiting the number of doctors artificially.People need reasonably priced care.That means keeping hi-priced parasites like you out of the system.You are the problem.You are not the solution at all.You keep ignoring the skyrocketing price of care.That means you and your dad getting rich.That's the problem.This problem can not be solved until we get the price of doctors salaries under control.You've had it your way,and it doesn't work.It's about the patients.For far too long it's been about doctors.No more.
We can do without you and your father.God willing we will have a chance to do so.Has to stop being all about you,and start being about the patients.Too much of this thread is about doctors.It's mainly because of the out of control egos of you and your father.That's the problem in the U.S. with healthcare(all about the AMA.)We are not ignorant.We know who is responsible for this,and it's simply people trying to get rich off of sick people.......BLOODSUCKERS

The FDA is in bed with the AMA, so the Patient will always be the loser! Doctors HAVE to become specialists because G.P.'s get financially minimized by the Insurance Giants! It's called Capitation...you can look it up:)
On the other hand .."socialized medicine" is nothing more than enforced mediocrity on the Doctors, and suffered by the Patients! How many of you have made fun/joked about county workers fixing our roads. Same thing with the Doctors under the Thumb of Healthcare Giants! Each patient counts the same...as little as 10 bucks a patient,depending on the various insurers that the Doctors office makes available to Patients! If the Doctors don't run the patients thru the office at a 'brisk pace'...then they're penalized by the Insurers! That is Fact! Other than that..I got nothing:cool:

A psychiatrist is what I need at this point. I should know that placing win bets on any horse related to Noble Causeway is only going to burn me.

:D

Cajun: just use the pain-avoidance therapy instead of the expense of a Shrink!
Whenever you make this type of bet, immediately walk head first into a door frame! After a couple of those you should have successfully completed therapy:D Good Racing Luck!

a friend of ours is an orthopedic surgeon. he and a few like minded docs opened their own ortho hospital--he's the guy who did the surgery on my husband last summer.

the hospitals in that city have been pretty much enraged since the place opened. seems our friend and his partners 'don't charge enough'. i hate to think what the bill would have been had tony gone to a traditional hospital, rather than to this place. and the care was exceptional! so, he and his partners could charge thru the nose as other places do, but they choose not to. shame there aren't more like him. but then, most hospitals have to overcharge their paying customers like crazy, to cover the costs of those who don't pay--and of course the huge increases in the bills explains why some can't pay!
a dog chasing its tail.

Any place that Rasheed Wallace graduates from cant be too great.

Well, what can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment. :o

History of health insurance in the US (and stuff on Canada, too):

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...rance.html#s49

Medical malpractice suits are a very small fraction of the reason health care is expensive- blaming them is just FOX propaganda to distract from real reasons and to blame something on lawyers, who are generally perceived to support Democratic candidates. Not saying there aren't frivolous lawsuits, but they are about as big a part of the health cost pie as the NEA is to your taxes (another favorite FOX target). If we really wanted to do something about medical malpractice, it would be better to lean on the AMA to police incompetent doctors, since a small number of doctors account for a sizable percentage of medical error.

The insurance industry is a huge chunk of the cost- insurance companies make their money by not providing service. In what other industry is this considered normal?

Mind you, disaster insurance, etc., makes sense- you pay a small amount of money every year as protection against something that is not likely to happen, but if it does, will cost you a lot of $$. So, a lot of people pay a small amount of $$, and a few of them wind up getting a lot of $$ in the event of disaster. Company makes money, and no one feels a real pinch.

But health care is different- everyone is going to need it at some point in their lives. And you can yell about personal responsibility, and laziness, and blah blah blah, but at the end of it all you've still got a sick human being suffering and in pain. Just like you can yell about lazy poor people but in the end you've still got someone going hungry and/or sleeping in the street.

Yes, some kind of universal coverage would raise taxes. It would also cut the cost of producing steel by 20 percent, because the businesses would not have to provide health care. So it could also bring jobs back to the US and make us competitive in manufacturing, etc. again. Is that preferable to higher taxes? Maybe, maybe not.

One could ask, would a long wait to see a doctor encourage people to take better preventative care of themselves, because they know they'll have to fork out $$ from their own pocket to see a private doctor? Isn't that encouraging true individual responsibility and really motivating people to take care of themselves? Maybe, maybe not. I do find it interesting that Cuba's life expectancy is almost the same as the US's, with a much lower standard of living. They speculate it's because due to not having a surplus of food, and few people being able to afford cars, Cubans, while not starving, can't overeat, and since they have to walk and bicycle, stay fit. I'm not advocating it (duh; I like a stocked shelf as much as the next person); it's just interesting that, with all the $$ we spend, we're not living any longer or healthier than an embargoed, poverty-stricken nation is.

I don't know the answer. I wonder if we'd be best served by some kind of gov't program that offers basic maintenance care, taking that out of the private insurance equation, and giving people the option of purchasing their own insurance for catastrophic health events. Americans tend to think in absolutes (one of the reasons, I'm convinced C2 failed), but there is usually more than a simple capitalism vs. socialism option.

Social Security, by the way, is one of the most successful social programs ever instituted- virtually eliminated elderly poverty. And it's very, very efficient. Needs to have the retirement age raised, of course, and the discriminatory cap on earnings lifted, but for all the wailing that it's running into financial trouble, the amount we've wasted in Iraq would have kept it solvent for 2 centuries, and yet somehow the gov't found the $1 trillion for a war of choice.

(On a grumpy note, I find it amusing that a person who owns her own horse and doesn't have to work a job while in college talks about having no money. Perspective, please. :) )

Danzig, if you really want to be taking no help from anyone, move to Rhode Island. As it is, Arkansas (you're from Arkansas, right?) gets $1.41 in federal aid for every $1.00 paid in taxes. (In NY, we get $0.79 back for every $1.00 we pay in, so in a way, one could say you're living off of me. ;)) Rhode Island is a pretty even $1.00 to $1.00 match. I'm teasing you, as I do believe richer states should help poorer ones, but it's always funny to hear the self-sufficiency argument coming from states who get more back from the government than they put in.

All that said, I'm probably going to end up voting for the magical unity pony, as I'm angry at HRC for not voting on the FISA thing today. Though I do think she's been getting an unfair deal in the media, I base my vote on candidates' actions, and she should have been there for that vote. And Harry Reid is a scumbag.

If you want to understand why health care costs as much as it does, you can do a LOT better than MSN Encarta. That stuff is written literally at a 3rd grade comprehension level.

Try www.kaiser.org or, better yet, type into google something like "Harvard School of Economics White Papers Cost of Health Care." You will find what you are looking for if you want to understand the issue very well.

You will learn who the stakeholders in the current system are and what movement it will take from all of them to change the way health care is delivered and financed.

You will learn that one of the biggest reasons HC costs so much more in the US is because this is where most innovation and the resulting technologies talkes place.

If you don't care to really understand the issue, all you will have is a TV sound bite education on Health Care, i.e., evil insurance companies, predatory malpractice lawyers, etc....

thats what i say. i kind of like obama. who can do worse than we already got ?i also like ron paul but the republicans are still stupid and don't realize that the party has been hijacked. they should of given ron paul a chance. hes the real deal. 100 years of war and borrowing from china, yeah, macain that will win you tons of votes. i can't see him winning against anyone.

You gotta change that name,man.