As much as I hated him. Celtics were nothing without Bird. A case can be made for Bird helping make Parrish, McHale great players. I dont think one can say the reverse. Bird made the whole thing work.

How far would the Spurs go without Duncan? The Spurs would have ZERO championships. Would Parker and Ginobili ever have made an Allstar team... I doubt it.

David Robinson knows he would probably not have made the top 50 alltime list without a championship. And that championship in 1999, required a great rookie. Same with Bird. McHale championships without Bird? I dont think so.

You are kidding right? McHale and Parrish both had post games that complimented Birds as much as he did theirs. McHale was a deadly low post scorer and tough defender. Parrish was a good spot up shooter and tough long armed defender. Both were ferocious rebounders. They would have been Hall of Famers with or without Bird. You cant compare everything with the Spurs!!

No flippin way for Parrish. McHale with the proper team. You have to win some championships. It would not have happened without Bird. How old are you Mr. Simon? I watched Parrish throughout his very long career. If you want to give it to him based on longevity, OK. Parrish is super overrated imo. How many championships without Bird? ZERO Dont you dare count Parrish's championship with the Bulls.

chuck, why do you have to bring facts into all this????:D

Kev this is all opinion and supposition on my part. The only thing that matters in the end is the ring. And Bird HAD to be on the Celtics team or they would not have those championships... imo.

Again. This is from a person who absolutley hated Bird... From the depths of my soul. He was a trash talker, dirty (at the appropriate times), but so unique. Bird showed that a forward could control a game. Anytime the Celtics had to have something done the ball was in his hands. He was the Man on that team. Its so obvious to me.
Bird was a revolution as was Magic. They changed the game. They played their positions in such a diff. manner than they had ever been played before. So even though they may not have been Michael, they had as much impact on the way the game is played.

Magic a 6' 9" Point??????? are you kidding. He took his idol, George Gervin, to a completely diff. level. (Gervin being one of the first tall guards that had a huge impact on the old ways of thinking... you cant be a guard, you are too tall). And his complete unselfishness and leadership made the Lakers. Then the guy plays CENTER when Kareem is hurt and scores forty against the sixers. GOOD LORD!

Bird. Controlled the flow of a game at a position that was not supposed to handle the ball that much. His movement without the ball, his passing, his superior intuition, made for a type of forward I doubt we see again. For God's sake he would lead the Celtics in rebounding and assists if he was not shooting well. He found some way to impact every important game.

Pat...the facts I was referring to where the ones Chuck was stating about the changes in coaching and, in part, the role players involved. I agree with you on the fact that without Bird, the Celtics win nothing.

I doubt there is a bigger Larry Bird fan alive than me. I lived and died with the Celtics of the 80's and can honestly say that I have not watched a single NBA game, from start to finish, since LB retired.

To compare Larry and Magic to MJ is deceptive. Larry and Magic were the definition of TEAM players. I like MJ (he is a Tarheel:D ), but, IMO, he revolutionized the individual aspect of the game...and I mean that in a very negative context. His style of play has produced a generation of NBA players that are strictly interested in SELF...there is no team concept anymore.

ten-pier MR GPK. And here I thought golf was the only sports subject you knew anything about!

I was just pointing out the soft side of your case. I'm sure if Larry (circa 1980version) as opposed to Lebron were drafted by the Cavs of 02-03 they would not have any championship banners hanging up.

Too simplistic of an argument.

Actually MJ might be the best example of a team player versus an individual because until he was surrounded by a core group of players that complimented his style (and were pretty good) he never went anywhere in the playoffs. Great as they were, Magic and Bird were drafted into pretty good situations. MJ and Lebron weren't.

Kev actually there was this thing called the ABA that predated MJ with that style of play along with the police blotter style of post game play...

I know I am jumping in this argument late but I will tell you based on my theory to be a great player in the NBA you have to make the players around you better and to me Magic, Larry and MJ all made the players around them better, that is why I dislike Kobe so much he doesnt make anyone around him better only himself, Lebron makes the players around him better in my opinion. The other night I never thought I would watch a player come close to being what Magic was like on the court but Lebron came close that is the first time since Magic retired that I have thought that about another NBA player.

I wasn't bragging...just stating simple facts. Why is it funny?? I'm a Cleveland fan, I was just defending James and mortimer wanted to make funny everything I said. I guess it is funny. James has a nice game is all.

Chuck, I know all about the ABA. My parents used to live within 5 minutes walking distance of where the Virginia Squires used to play. They had the privelage of watching Dr. J play...before he was Dr. J

Sorry if that came across the wrong way. I think Lebron has more than a nice game...he is one of the few that I can sit down and actually watched play for more than 5 minutes.

The best thing about the ABA was the hairdoos

Chuck, early in his career, I think MJ was a very individualistic, simply because he had to be. Not until later in his career did he begin to make his teammates better...because he finally had teammates that could play. But, IMO, by then, he had stamped himself a great individual player and the kids growing up watching him wanted the same type of star power and sensed that the individual style of play vs. the team style of play was the way to achieve that. Had those same kids payed more attention to the TEAM aspect of his game later in his career, I have to believe that the NBA would not be in the sad state of affairs that it is today.

Yeah...Dr. J had a fro bigger than the basketball itself.

My God.






It still lives.

And it took Jordan four tries to crack the Pistons in the playoffs. You've got to have some people to play with. I'm a Detroit native but I want this to go seven games and I will not be disappointed to see Cleve win. Should be a hecl of a game 5.

How many ABA games did you go to? There were some great players.

AHHH lets see... the NBA 3 point shot came from where?

NBA was smart gobbling the ABA up.

What argument am I trying to make?

When comparing players that the only thing that matters is championships...

Actually it was teams with certain players.
So ya got me. Why I oughta...

I usually find it hard to agree with men that wear fake hair, and have a penchant for biting women in the butt, butt... Marv is right.

That was a superior athletic performance in the playoffs. About as good as it gets. The Manchild.
I think I would like this series to go two more games if Lebron is going to play like this every night.
That was really a fun game to watch.

ESPN stole my line.
Completely original... Never uttered before.

What a great day for basketball talk. Kobe has a mental breakdown, and Lebron takes over the world.

To say MJ wasn't a team player early is wrong. I remember a stretch in 1989 when they had lost their point guard where he moved there and went for seven straight triple-doubles and 10 in 11 games. That season, he ended up with 15 triple-doubles and five more games where he missed it by one assist or rebound. Magic had 17 that season. Jason Kidd's career high is 12. MJ was one of the few players in league history that if u needed 45 one night, he could get it. If u needed 15 boards the next, he could get it. If u needed 15 assists, he could get it. It's just that in those earlier days, his team needed him scoring 35 a night in order to have any chance. But he absolutely could play the team game if he wanted to. He could do whatever he wanted to do on the court. Others have made the point that he didn't have a team to play with then. That's true so he needed to be more of an individual. But I hate when people say he didn't become a winner until he learned to play team ball. That's just not true.

"He didn't become a winner until he learned to play team ball."


This is so true.

It will be interesting to see if the NBA coaches noticed something last night.


No one else in the world apparently did.

Let's watch.










Should be fun.

He was a winner before he came to the NBA. He 'became' a winner when the team got better players.

Can players BECOME better players under the right circumstances?

Or your just good or you are not?

I believe the former. ANd I also believe certain players have the ability to make others around them better. You have your stubborn superstar that just does not get much better, Rasheed Wallace. And you have some that are talented, just waiting to blossom... Steve Nash w/ Dallas AFTER his first go round with Phoenix.

Its not always crystal clear who the better players are until they meet right conditions. For instance, confidence is absolutely huge at any level of basketball. And that can be gained by being put in the proper situation. All of the guys in the NBA have some superior athletic and/or physical trait. I think the real key is finding players that can become better... as an individual and teammate.

Talent level may not change but the dynamics of a team can make a players strengths come out or be stifled. A point guard will play better if he has good shooters to pass to.

Pgardn: ...so you added "hunting for the Holy Grail" as one of your interests!:eek:

Mediocre shooters become good shooters if they have the right point guard to get them the ball in their range and spot.

I'll leave that to RC Buford and company.

But Ive had to put together some girls AAU teams, and looking for the right combination is critical, cat fights and all must be part of the equation, with Kobe as well.

Fatal Flaw...plus Flips' coaching! And the fact that the pod people have whisked away the "real" Taysuan Prince!