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-   -   Smarty Jones Classic (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11010)

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPK
He was my introduction into horse racing....
Yet another reason he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

randallscott35 03-20-2007 03:33 PM
True enough, I love Mineshaft but I know he'll never be in the Hall Of Fame. Doesn't diminish what I thought of him. HOF is simply a title after all.

Coach Pants 03-20-2007 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
His actual accomplishments were greater than Smarty Jones....and he has as much chance of being in the Hall of Fame as Spooky Mulder.
Well....he was sore in the bcc. I think his second place finish was one of the best performances in the history of sport. A tear rolled down my cheek when I watched that magnificent animal labor down the stretch that dreary afternoon at Churchill Downs.

Lucky for me I knew he was a sore horse when I saw him in the paddock while watching the live feed from a 19 inch rca in the grandstand area. Didn't wager a dime on him.

GPK 03-20-2007 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Yet another reason he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

I have been good for the sport, haven't I??:D

Antitrust32 03-20-2007 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
I understand your point about the HOF, but with how horse racing has been this decade, every horse is retired once they make it "big time". Do you really think none of these horses will make it into the HOF? They are all accomplishing "little" because they are taken to stud, with a few exceptions like Tiznow. (Lava Man has been accomplishing "a lot" because he's a gelding.. is he HOF worthy.. i dont know). Ghostzapper, Smarty, Afleet Alex, Point Given, etc. all taken to the shed when they could have had the chance to accomplish a lot more. At least Mineshaft ran an amazing 18 times. The game is changing so maybe the HOF requirements will be different.
Andy, will you please comment on this post i have quoted. Will there ever be horses worthy of the HOF in the future because of long careers. there are no long careers anymore, at least for horses that win 2 or more triple crown races. How will this change the HOF?

randallscott35 03-20-2007 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow Pants
Well....he was sore in the bcc. I think his second place finish was one of the best performances in the history of sport. A tear rolled down my cheek when I watched that magnificent animal labor down the stretch that dreary afternoon at Churchill Downs.

Lucky for me I knew he was a sore horse when I saw him in the paddock while watching the live feed from a 19 inch rca in the grandstand area. Didn't wager a dime on him.
Wait a second, were you with Kyroses when you saw him in the paddock?

GPK 03-20-2007 03:36 PM
You guys would be bumbling idiots if not for Jessica and I to keep ya'll pointed in the right direction...:rolleyes:

Coach Pants 03-20-2007 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
Wait a second, were you with Kyroses when you saw him in the paddock?
I wish. She was lookin fine in her purple burka in the Darley box. I tried to get her attention but she didn't notice me. :mad:

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
Andy, will you please comment on this post i have quoted. Will there ever be horses worthy of the HOF in the future because of long careers. there are no long careers anymore, at least for horses that win 2 or more triple crown races. How will this change the HOF?
I would hope not. When horses start getting in the Hall of Fame for what might have been they should tear the place down.

I can just hear the speech " Smartest Jones would have been a GREAT horse, even better than his Daddy, had he not blown a suspensory in his second start. Many people, some who have even been around racing late in the 20th century, claimed his debut was the best they have seen since Proud Accolade....who by the way is another fine entrant into the Hall of Fame today ".


You earn the right to be placed alongside the greats through accomplishment. If for whatever reason a horse is retired before compiling a substantial resume it should not get in. Ever.

randallscott35 03-20-2007 03:42 PM
Once again, a 4yr old season at a minimum matters. Do what the Bid did and then come talk to me...Keep all horses out of the HOF except those that can't be argued.

Antitrust32 03-20-2007 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I would hope not. When horses start getting in the Hall of Fame for what might have been they should tear the place down.

I can just hear the speech " Smartest Jones would have been a GREAT horse, even better than his Daddy, had he not blown a suspensory in his second start. Many people, some who have even been around racing late in the 20th century, claimed his debut was the best they have seen since Proud Accolade....who by the way is another fine entrant into the Hall of Fame today ".


You earn the right to be placed alongside the greats through accomplishment. If for whatever reason a horse is retired before compiling a substantial resume it should not get in. Ever.
thanks for the answer. it looks like there will never be another derby winner in the HOF.

Speaking of great ones. Bob fox is up next talking about Phar Lap and the Diva from Austrailia. should be interesting

Mortimer 03-20-2007 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bystander
I feel like this has been said over and over and over, the Smarty Jones hype generated online and in print was overwhelming, and somewhat nauseating.

I liked the colt, I was a fan, but after a while it was like revisionist history at work, as Santa would ride the Easter Bunny to a ghastly and unfair loss in the Belmont. It's all about perspective. Since Smarty other racing media "stars" have popped up with the same sort of annoying fervor- remember Rocky? Smarty Jones was a neat horse who deserved some media attention, but not the amount of hype that makes a regular race fan cringe. I'll fall off my chair if he's inducted in the Hall of Fame.

Oh, and I dedicate this to Mortimerdexterfoxworthy.








I would like to give you a nice kissy-poo.

Coach Pants 03-20-2007 03:48 PM
Yearling - Jr. High
Two Year old - High School
3 Year old - College Freshman
4 Year old - College Junior
5 Year old - Professional/Shed Row

NFL rules. Minimum breeding age 5...regardless of injury.

The breeders can wait

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
thanks for the answer. it looks like there will never be another derby winner in the HOF.
Or until the inevitable collapse of the breeding market.

Bystander 03-20-2007 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mortimerdexterfoxworthy
I would like to give you a nice kissy-poo.
It is nice to see that your remedial internet sessions have finally paid off.

Scurlogue Champ 03-20-2007 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow Pants
I wish. She was lookin fine in her purple burka in the Darley box. I tried to get her attention but she didn't notice me. :mad:
She was too busy watching the tv screen and formulating her next award- winning piece of writing.

That girl has got some trophies....sheesh!!

slotdirt 03-20-2007 03:51 PM
Hmmm..wondering if Ghostzapper is a HOFer in the eyes of the same folks dismissing many other fine representatives of the sport.

Mortimer 03-20-2007 03:51 PM
Well I didn't exactly have the greatest instructor in the world.

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotdirt
Hmmm..wondering if Ghostzapper is a HOFer in the eyes of the same folks dismissing many other fine representatives of the sport.

Ghostzapper had substantial real accomplishments....Grade 1s at 6 1/2 furlongs, one mile, 1 1/8 miles and 1 1/4 miles. He's certainly more deserving than your mysterious " fine representatives of the sport ". Hall of Fame? I don't know.....maybe.

Unless I'm wrong....and you really meant Spooky Mulder. Now THAT horse is, in fact, a fine representative of the sport.

Bystander 03-20-2007 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mortimerdexterfoxworthy
Well I didn't exactly have the greatest instructor in the world.
True, but you shouldn't speak ill of your "good friend."

Mortimer 03-20-2007 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bystander
True, but you shouldn't speak ill of your "good friend."

Aye?




Do you mean the one who refused to answer my questions?

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bystander
True, but you shouldn't speak ill of your "good friend."

Jealous?

Bystander 03-20-2007 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Jealous?
Yes.

easy goer 03-20-2007 04:23 PM
Just to add to Blackthroated wonderful story of Bold Forbes:

Looks like at 2 he won the Saratoga Special S. (G2), Tremont S., and Clasico Dia de Los Padres (PR). I'm guessing he won the latter race earlier and then came to the Saratoga meet.

At 3, he won the San Jacinto S. (G2) and the Bay Shore S. (G3) prior to running/winning in the Wood. I dont know if San J. is in P.R. or what, maybe went back there to run..?

Then, after the TC...

he Ran 2ND San Miguel S.
and 3RD Vosburgh H. (G2) and San Vicente S. (G3)

Im guessing these were after the T.C. Hunter's book doesnt mention them and the Pedigree site doesnt specify, since Hunter mentions the San Jacinto and Bay Shore as preceeding the Wood I would guess the latter three were after the Wood. HUnter implies he was retired at 3.

He finished with 18 Starts: 13 - 1 - 4, $546,536; very nice.

Samarta 03-20-2007 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
It was packed, no doubt about it, but I don't believe any of those attendance figures. And, I am including other TC venues as well.
While I'll go ahead and answer the question "no, I didn't count every person that came through the gate"....I was at Belmont that day and all I can say is it was mobbed. The next year when Afleet Alex won it looked like a ghost town compared to the '04 race. I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe the attendance figures though....everyone that pays is accounted for. If anything the reported figures are actually lower than actuals because of comps. And there are a lot of those at the TC races.

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 04:30 PM
Thanks. I must have been wrong about the Special being his first NY start as the Tremont, I believe, has always preceded Saratoga. I have a lot of those charts and will take a look.

Yes! He won the Tremont on July 24th by five lengths over Iron Bit in 1:09 2/5. It was another nine lengths back to the third finisher. He paid $5.40 as the second choice to Iron Bit who was 4:5.

easy goer 03-20-2007 04:31 PM
Q: Did he win all of those as a front runner? He must have been like War Emblem on a steroid program or something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind


And, by the way, calling it the largest on site attendance in New York Sports is a skewed approach, as while leaving out the fact that the announced attendance was a lie, it is only a " record " because of the amount of people Belmont is able to hold as opposed to other sports arenas....
Well isnt that true of any attendance record???

ANd it was a record for Belmont, therefore it certainly means something in terms of the history of racing at that venue. Right? I mean the above reasoning cannot diminish the record in terms of BEL's history right?

It sure seemed like a lot that day in 2004, I was there in 2002, and 2003 and the crowd seemed noticeably bigger for 2004. The bathroom lines while even more crowded now had female guests, which is always upsetting when you are holding your pecker in your hands.

They announced it as 110,000+ I believe, not 120,000.

It was also a different type of crowd, down near the rail, we chanted "FUnny Cide, Funny Cide.." as he got to the track but w/ Smarty it seemed like a foregone conclusion we sort of were just expecting the TC and wanted to be there. The tension wasnt nearly so much..

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samarta
While I'll go ahead and answer the question "no, I didn't count every person that came through the gate"....I was at Belmont that day and all I can say is it was mobbed. The next year when Afleet Alex won it looked like a ghost town compared to the '04 race. I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe the attendance figures though....everyone that pays is accounted for. If anything the reported figures are actually lower than actuals because of comps. And there are a lot of those at the TC races.

There are two things I know for sure.....it was obscenely crowded and the attendance figure was fabricated. If it makes you happy to not believe me then feel free to go right ahead.

I hope you were able to find something else of interest in the thread, and considering the foolishness you spouted recently about Round Pond, which you never revisited after she lost, I am surprised you have the gall to pursue this ridiculous argument with me. On the other hand....very little surprises me with some posters here.

randallscott35 03-20-2007 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy goer
Q: Did he win all of those as a front runner? He must have been like War Emblem on a steroid program or something...



Well isnt that true of any attendance record???

ANd it was a record for Belmont, therefore it certainly means something in terms of the history of racing at that venue. Right? I mean the above reasoning cannot diminish the record in terms of BEL's history right?

It sure seemed like a lot that day in 2004, I was there in 2002, and 2003 and the crowd seemed noticeably bigger for 2004. The bathroom lines while even more crowded now had female guests, which is always upsetting when you are holding your pecker in your hands.

They announced it as 110,000+ I believe, not 120,000.

It was also a different type of crowd, down near the rail, we chanted "FUnny Cide, Funny Cide.." as he got to the track but w/ Smarty it seemed like a foregone conclusion we sort of were just expecting the TC and wanted to be there. The tension wasnt nearly so much..
120139 in attendance at Belmont Park that day---

mes5107 03-20-2007 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
120139 in attendance at Belmont Park that day---
I'm trying to understand why NYRA, or whoever reports the attendance, would flat out lie about the attendance. There are rotating gate counters at all of the entrances. Perhaps 20,000+ went out to their cars and came back in during the race and it skewed the numbers, but why would somebody look at a 90,000 attendance, and say "That's not right, let's add 30,000."?

randallscott35 03-20-2007 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mes5107
I'm trying to understand why NYRA, or whoever reports the attendance, would flat out lie about the attendance. There are rotating gate counters at all of the entrances. Perhaps 20,000+ went out to their cars and came back in during the race and it skewed the numbers, but why would somebody look at a 90,000 attendance, and say "That's not right, let's add 30,000."?
I don't know I wasn't at that one b/c of the weather and the crowd....But last year felt like more than the 60 something they announced. It was very crowded where I was and the people were obnoxious and drunk....These idiots are not fans, they are a bunch of drunks who ruin big days.

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mes5107
I'm trying to understand why NYRA, or whoever reports the attendance, would flat out lie about the attendance. There are rotating gate counters at all of the entrances. Perhaps 20,000+ went out to their cars and came back in during the race and it skewed the numbers, but why would somebody look at a 90,000 attendance, and say "That's not right, let's add 30,000."?

Most tracks most likely lie about their attendance on big days to make it appear to the others in the industry that they are doing better at drawing people to their tracks than they are.

Does this really surprise you considering the overall industry? If it does....wait until we tell you what really goes on at the yearling sales!

sumitas 03-20-2007 05:11 PM
one word---Birdstone

mes5107 03-20-2007 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Most tracks most likely lie about their attendance on big days to make it appear to the others in the industry that they are doing better at drawing people to their tracks than they are.

Does this really surprise you considering the overall industry? If it does....wait until we tell you what really goes on at the yearling sales!
If that is indeed the case, I would think that lying about attendance on an "off" day would be far more productive. Belmont was doing something on this day in particular that no other track can replicate. Lying about the attendance this day offers no incentive. Also, while drawing people to the tracks is nice, the handle is the number they look at.

paisjpq 03-20-2007 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mes5107
If that is indeed the case, I would think that lying about attendance on an "off" day would be far more productive. Belmont was doing something on this day in particular that no other track can replicate. Lying about the attendance this day offers no incentive. Also, while drawing people to the tracks is nice, the handle is the number they look at.
they probably do lie about attendence all the time...they just don't claim new attendance records...because then they would be found out.

mes5107 03-20-2007 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
they probably do lie about attendence all the time...they just don't claim new attendance records...because then they would be found out.
If this does indeed happen, who are they kidding? When you have a business, the main thing is the bottom line. Falsifying attendance figures, while it may look like you are doing better to other tracks, doesn't help you one bit. I'd rather have accurate numbers to look at while making my business plan than to sort through phantom figures.

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mes5107
If this does indeed happen, who are they kidding? When you have a business, the main thing is the bottom line. Falsifying attendance figures, while it may look like you are doing better to other tracks, doesn't help you one bit. I'd rather have accurate numbers to look at while making my business plan than to sort through phantom figures.
You are not wrong. However, explaining a lot of things many racetracks do, in a logical manner, is a futile chase.

paisjpq 03-20-2007 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
You are not wrong. However, explaining a lot of things many racetracks do, in a logical manner, is a futile chase.
plus, would it really matter if attendence figures were off as long as handle is accurate?

blackthroatedwind 03-20-2007 05:33 PM
Only for misguided bragging rights. As usual, racetracks have a distorted sense of what's important.

Danzig 03-20-2007 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
thanks for the answer. it looks like there will never be another derby winner in the HOF.
Speaking of great ones. Bob fox is up next talking about Phar Lap and the Diva from Austrailia. should be interesting
that's life. not like all every derby winner ever is automatically granted a berth. there are no doubt a LOT more derby winners who aren't enshrined then are, nor should they be based on one win. it's hall of fame, not hall of what may have been if....


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