I don't think The Tin Man is as good as horses like David Junior or Hurricane Run. I never said that he is as good as those horses. But I do think he's much better than Cacique or English Channel.

Richi, let me ask you a question, if I may. Do you think in the Arlington Million that EC was compromised by he far outside post position, then he was bumped even wider out of the gate by Cacique and then raced 3 wide for most of the race?? If the roles had been reversed and EC broke from the 2 hole made an easy lead and led through soft fractions and TTM had the same type trip as EC did, would TTM have done any better than EC did???? Would any horse have done any better than EC did that day??

Anyone that thinks that Cacique is that much better is fooling themselves. They didn't see the way that EC ran by him in the UN like he was standing still.

Relaxed Gesture better than the Tin Man? LOL! Now I have read everything.
So much east coast bias its sickening. Next thing I'll read is Ramazutti is better than the Tin Man.

The Tin Man is such a slow and average horse, LOL. What does that make the horses he just beat in Chicago?

Maybe I have been a little hard on this Poly track, I saw they ran 1:08 yesterday at Turfway, maybe they are getting it right, but I have to wonder 1:08 is still damn fast and just because it's on Poly, does it still not take as much out of a horse, because it's not on a packed surface...

No, I don't think EC had a legitimate excuse in the Million. The trip he had was not my definition of a troubled trip. You watch the races every day. How many winners have a perfect trip and hug the rail all the way around the track? There aren't that many. Horses win every day going 3 wide. If you call that trouble, then you must have about 2,000 horses on your watch-list because there are probably 2 or 3 horses in every race that have a trip like that. there is no way he was going to beat The Tin Man that day. If it would have been a 2 horse field with just the two of them, EC would have lost by a couple of lengths.

I like The Tin Man and Go Deputy, a horse nobody has mentioned on this thread.

If the roles were reversed, would TTM have beat EC??? Honestly?

I don't dislike The Tin Man at all...he is a very solid horse. But for you to say that he is "much better" than Cacique or EC, I guess we just have different criteria for determining what makes a horse good.

Last I checked, EC was 3 for 5 this year, with 2 Grade 1 wins. IMO...that makes him pretty damn good. His only two off the board finished were in races that the winners (Cacique and The Tin Man) slowed down both races to a crawl and led gate to wire.

I'm sorry, but I think the outside post and being bumped even wider out of the gate did compromise EC in the Arl. Million. I'm not saying he would have won by any means....but it didn't help his cause. TTM broke very well...got up front, slowed it down and took off at the end. It was a great performance on his part and the jockey as well. The other jocks made a huge mistake letting a horse of that calibur get away with setting soft fractions.


Again, TTM is a very very good horse. I appreciate good tough runners like him, but to say that he is "much better" than EC and Cacique??? Come on Richi...

What's your definition of "much better"? I don't think that he's 10 lengths better. I think he is a length or two better at 9-10 furlongs. To me that is "much better".

EC lost the Million by practically 5 lengths. I just watched the race again. He had no legitimate excuses. If he and TTM reversed trips, TTM would still have beaten him easily. Maybe he would have beaten him by 2 lengths instead of 5 lengths, but he still would have beaten hin handily. Caciqe and EC were both losing ground to TTM down the stretch. You need to watch the replay again. You can't complain about a slow pace when your horses are losing ground in the stretch.

Kev-

In the race you were referring to where cacique slowed down the fractions to a crawl, Manhattan I believe, English Channel had a perfect stalking trip with no excuses. Very slow fractions and he was very close to Cacique, yet 2horses were able to outfinish EC, Grey Swallow and Relaxed Gesture.

No way do I think Relaxed Gesture is better than EC, but on that particular day EC had a perfct trip with no excuses. Horses like that have a huge advantage over horses like Relaxed Gesture who came from way behind to only lose by a head bob to Cacique.

Makes you wonder that sometimes its just who feels better on which day and which turn it is today.

...and Cacique had a perfect trip in the UN and EC ran by him like he was standing still.

My point exactly. Its all a matter of whos turn it is. Spin the dial. You cant logically say any one of the 3 are better. If you think you can, your kidding yourself.

I'm not the one saying that at all. I think EC, Cacique and TTM are all right about even with one another. I appreciate the greatness in all 3 horses, but my loyalty obviously lies with EC. On any given day,any one of those is very capable of beatin the other 2. I just appreciate good turf racing....

I agree. I am greatly impressed by the quality of the older turf horses in America this year and have enjoyed all the big races won by Cacique, English Channel and the Tin Man. Keep em coming!

Its rare we get this quality without 1 superstar who clearly is the dominater of the group.

You are right that EC and Cacique have taken turns beating each other. They've never beaten The Tin Man though. Why would you think that either of those horses are as good as he is?

Gonna take him beating them more than one time in a race where everything went perfect for TTM to say that he is "much better" than them.

Good point Rupert, I guess I am just going by quality of wins for all 3 and the fact that the 3 have met only once. If they all run in the BC I would take a shot with the Tin Man again, not even a doubt in my mind.

Yes things did go perfectly right for the Tin Man in the Arl Mill, but cant you say the same thing for English Channel for both of his 2 grade 1 wins this year? Perfect trips from just off the pace where the pacesetter set very honest fractions. I think the Tin Man would have won both of those races as well (had he been the beneficiary of a perfect stalking trip).

...and things went perfectly for Cacique in his two wins...

Yes they did. All which proves my point that you guys were very quick to label the Tin Man as a lucky winner because of his pace advantage yet when horses like EC and Cacique win with perfect trips, they are worthy champions. I dont get it. Show me a race EC or Cacique won which wasnt perfectly set up for them? Its a double standard and an east coast bias in full gear. The horses from the west never get the same respect per talent level that the ones from the east get.

I never claimed his win to be lucky...it was a great win and a very smart ride by Espinoza.