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jms62

12-31-2010 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 738538)

I, too, raised an eyebrow about Nascar's remark "I gave up 20 years of my life". As you say, the military is a choice - it's not a sentence. However, the one thing you fail to take into consideration is that those who choose to serve in the military run the risk of getting nothing, as they stand a chance of getting killed in combat.

Not meaning for this to be about ME as I am so often accused - I'm just offering facts and figures, based on personal experience.

My husband served 4-1/2 years active duty in the USMC - two tours in Nam. His top pay as an E/4 over 4 (years) was $412/month. Hardly anything to get rich on - even back then. He then went into the Reserves and served for 22 years - one weekend a month and 2 weeks in the Summer in Panama; eventually back in the USA. Twice during his reserve duty, he was called back to active duty. His employers had his job waiting for him upon his return, but he didn't get paid by them while he was gone, and the amount of money the government paid him while he served active duty was about 1/3 of his regular wages. His top yearly income in the Reserves was $4,800 with a bit more for the two years in which he was called back to active duty.

His retirement income now is $574/month - and he doesn't have to pay for supplement insurance to Medicare which would cost us about $350/month if we had to buy supplement insurance on our own. However, we still have to pay for Medicare benefits.

If anyone wants to call those benefits obscene for putting in 26-1/2 years service with the military, sobeit. If anyone wants to say he doesn't deserve what he earned, sobeit.

If you say people who paid into unemployment deserve unemployment benefits, then the same holds true for people who paid into social security, medicare, and served in the military. They are not entitlements.

With regard to unemployment, I'd say that anyone searching for a job for xx number of months without success should consider retraining for another type career. And, sometimes taking a job at lesser pay and proving your worth to your employer with past experience and knowledge that you're bringing to the plate is a good shot at quick advancement and a higher salary. 75% of success in the workplace is just showing up.

A local used car dealership had a sign up for a number of weeks - "Car detailer wanted - $20/hour - will train." Our friend's son was on unemployment and supposedly looking for work, and we told him about it. His response - "That's hard labor. I still have a lot of time left on unemployment." He's 20-years old and collecting less than $200 wk, living home with mom and dad and not paying a nickle toward his keep. Parents may be pretty much to blame for his selfish/shiftless attitude. Not saying this is the norm for people on unemployment, but when people hear responses like this - it's bound to get them riled.

You are obviously retired.. Train for what job??

jms62

12-31-2010 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot (Post 738544)

How about every single citizen spends 2 years in the military upon graduation from high school, in exchange for being able to purchase into national single-payer healthcare, and receiving Social Security in their old age?

I would have no problem whatsoever with it..

Riot	12-31-2010 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 738546)

I would have no problem whatsoever with it..

I guarantee you we wouldn't be so quick to be invading other countries, either.

jms62

12-31-2010 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot (Post 738548)

I guarantee you we wouldn't be so quick to be invading other countries, either.

War is a multi-multi Billion dollar business. Knocking it down and building it back up.. Those that make the decisions to go to war are very heavily invested.. They sell us the Patriotic bull<shit. Losers are the taxpayers (what else is new) and those killed in combat and their families. The last war we should have been involved in was WWII.

Riot	12-31-2010 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 738550)

Yup. :tro:

With the change in the auto industries, I wonder if defense contracting is left as the biggest industrial complex in the US?

Princess Doreen

12-31-2010 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 738545)

You are obviously retired.. Train for what job??

When I was in the work force, I had to retrain for a job when the company I worked for went out of business. I didn't have/need heavy computer skills in the job I had, but if I wanted a job elsewhere, I had to train to get those skills.

If someone feels they have all the skills necessary and they don't need any more education/training and don't want to pursue another career, I feel bad for them in their job search. But sooner or later unemployment benefits are going to run out. What are the choices then? Take a lesser paying job or go on welfare?

jms62

12-31-2010 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 738554)

When I was in the work force, I had to retrain for a job when the company I worked for went out of business. I didn't have/need heavy computer skills in the job I had, but if I wanted a job elsewhere, I had to train to get those skills.

If someone feels they have all the skills necessary and they don't need any more education/training and don't want to pursue another career, I feel bad for them in their job search. But sooner or later unemployment benefits are going to run out. What are the choices then? Take a lesser paying job or go on welfare?

Different era Princess... You can train all you want but the fact of the matter is that the jobs are being sent to countries paying slave wages. This is BOTH blue collar and WHITE Collar. Can I recommend the following http://www.amazon.com/Race-Bottom-Wo...3818672&sr=8-1

Riot	12-31-2010 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 738554)

What are the choices then? Take a lesser paying job or go on welfare?

There are not enough of even "lesser paying" jobs right now for the number of unemployed we have times five, even if every single one of them was willing to wash cars or work the midnight shift at McDonalds.

Retraining is expensive and takes time. If you are an unemployed systems analyst making $80K/year, retraining as a licensed insurance salesmen is an option, sure. A CPA? Or you could work as a car detailer I suppose.

We've lost the large manufacturing base we used to have in this country, jobs that paid a wage where someone could support their family. In the northeast corridor you could graduate high school and go to work at the factory, and you knew you could work there for life, and advance if you were sharp.

We've lost that, and although we should be replacing that with growing or innovative tech industry-oriented jobs (think computers, green energy, etc), we in the US dig in our heels and don't seem eager to embrace such.

Meanwhile we continue to fall off educationally, taking us further out of science/research/medicine type fields internationally.

Seems the USA's fastest-growing and most thriving industry right now might be the cooking, serving, and eating of fast junk food. (Edit: which is why the healthcare industry is about 1/5 of our economy)

Princess Doreen

12-31-2010 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot (Post 738561)

I don't disagree with most of what you are saying. I know it's not going to set well with you, and you'll say it's all Bush's fault - but I just wonder when all this Hope/Change thing is going to start kicking in.

jms62

12-31-2010 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot (Post 738561)

There are not enough of even "lesser paying" jobs right now for the number of unemployed we have times five, even if every single one of them was willing to wash cars or work the midnight shift at McDonalds.

Retraining is expensive and takes time. If you are an unemployed systems analyst making $80K/year, retraining as a licensed insurance salesmen is an option, sure. A CPA? Or you could work as a car detailer I suppose.

We've lost the large manufacturing base we used to have in this country, jobs that paid a wage where someone could support their family. In the northeast corridor you could graduate high school and go to work at the factory, and you knew you could work there for life, and advance if you were sharp.

We've lost that, and although we should be replacing that with growing or innovative tech industry-oriented jobs (think computers, green energy, etc), we in the US dig in our heels and don't seem eager to embrace such.Meanwhile we continue to fall off educationally, taking us further out of science/research/medicine type fields internationally.

Seems the USA's fastest-growing and most thriving industry right now might be the cooking, serving, and eating of fast junk food.

These jobs will also be shipped out of the country with the exception of Sales and upper management positions.

jms62

12-31-2010 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 738562)

It is Greed that has destroyed our country and the lobbyists that prevent government of doing anything to change it.

Riot	12-31-2010 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 738562)

Actually I blame Clinton for initiating some pretty serious financial deregulation, the repercussions we see now. I agree Obama has to be more aggressive on the job front.

American wages have been stagnating for years, so Americans have spent the past 15 years feeding their consumerism via bad second mortgages on their homes. Now those homes have lost value so they can't borrow against it, neither can they pay back what they owe. Folks can no longer borrow against their home values to get money to feed their consumerism - whoops, our economy.

As jms points out, what's here isn't even American made any more. Go into a Target or WalMart, etc. Food is about the only thing in there made in the USA. American workers need real jobs (manufacturing, technology, etc) not fake jobs making money off of money, or in service industries.

jms62

12-31-2010 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot (Post 738570)

And for 20 years those that were pushed out of the blue collar work force could retrain and migrate to white collar jobs.. Now they have outsourced that for the benefit of a select few without the basic understanding that the people they are pushing out of jobs are reponsible for purchasing 95% of the Goods and Services that support the companies they run. They are firing thier own customers!

Riot	12-31-2010 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 738572)

Bingo. This is a 20-year old problem.

jms62

12-31-2010 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot (Post 738574)

Bingo. This is a 20-year old problem.

And I used to think Ross Perot was a boob... He called it...

Princess Doreen

12-31-2010 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 738565)

It is Greed that has destroyed our country and the lobbyists that prevent government of doing anything to change it.

It is also government interference with free trade and wishing to tax the life out of industries that once provided jobs. That's why they're moving out of the country. Businesses are in business to make a profit - not to finance government's reckless spending with inflated business taxation.

Sure, it costs money to retrain and educate, but it's expensive to keep extending unemployment benefits. Where is that money coming from?

I'd say that the highly paid workers who are now on unemployment are working their collective butts off trying to find a job with even half of what they once earned because it's more than what they're getting on unemployment.

But, what incentive is there for someone collecting $400/week on unemployment taking a job paying $450?

Also, the obsession with pursuing a college diploma only to find out when a student graduates college, there aren't enough college jobs out there, and businesses are only going to hire the best of the lot they get to choose from. The student is stuck with student loans and has to work at a job he/she could have gotten fresh out of high school

Trades - likes plumbers, welders, electricians, roofers, construction, etc. are ripe for opportunities. But too many of our young people think such professions are declasse - but taking a job at McDonalds isn't. And, the military is an option for a paycheck and career opportunities.

jms62

12-31-2010 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 738581)

Not true at all. Business 2 biggest lies are taxes and lack of skilled employees. They are shipping jobs overseas for 1 reason only and that is for higher profits but it is now canibalistc practice.

Quote:

But, what incentive is there for someone collecting $400/week on unemployment taking a job paying $450?

There is none. Governmnt needs to think out of the box and give incentives to these people to get back to work as quickly as possible. Maybe 3 months of unemployment if they get back to work within 3 months and stay employeed for 1 year afterwards. Of course there needs to be limits to this practice (maybe once per 2 years).

Quote:

Also, the obsession with pursuing a college diploma only to find out when a student graduates college, there aren't enough college jobs out there, and businesses are only going to hire the best of the lot they get to choose from. The student is stuck with student loans and has to work at a job he/she could have gotten fresh out of high school

There are students graduating college today with loans that they have no chance of ever being able to pay back... Can you say student loan crisies a few years down the road.

Quote:

Trades - likes plumbers, welders, electricians, roofers, construction, etc. are ripe for opportunities. But too many of our young people think such professions are declasse - but taking a job at McDonalds isn't. And, the military is an option for a paycheck and career opportunities.

All are honorable jobs however there are many of the above getting laid off due to real estate collapse.

Princess Doreen

12-31-2010 01:51 PM

Not true at all. Business 2 biggest lies are taxes and lack of skilled employees. They are shipping jobs overseas for 1 reason only and that is for higher profits but it is now canibalistc practice.

It is true. Businesses don't like to pull up stakes, lay off people, pay unemployment, and move out of the country. If the government would concentrate on securing the borders and keeping us safe and leave business to its tried and true success in running business without government interference with a bazillion regulations and gargantuan taxation, the U.S. could be well on its way to recovery. And PREZBO just loves courting the favor of labor unions and supports their greed..

There is none. Governmnt needs to think out of the box and give incentives to these people to get back to work as quickly as possible. Maybe 3 months of unemployment if they get back to work within 3 months and stay employeed for 1 year afterwards. Of course there needs to be limits to this practice (maybe once per 2 years).

I don't disagree, but extending unemployment benefits for as long as they are going on accomplishes nothing. Spend that money on education, training, and, as you say, incentives.

There are students graduating college today with loans that they have no chance of ever being able to pay back... Can you say student loan crisies a few years down the road.

Again, I don't disagree. But, there are far too many C- minus high school students being pushed into pursuing a college education, graduating with bare minimum grades and expecting the employment world to fall at their feet.

All are honorable jobs however there are many of the above getting laid off due to real estate collapse.

There are areas of the country that are crying for trades people. People who already own houses need electricians, plumbers, roofers, maintenance, etc., etc. And, a good number of unemployed people living in economically depressed areas are loathe to move away from their "home" to seek employment elsewhere.

Riot	12-31-2010 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 738581)

Trades - likes plumbers, welders, electricians, roofers, construction, etc. are ripe for opportunities.

All those jobs are dead as long as the housing-construction industry is dead. I think that's a major problem now - the skilled trades, and union jobs, have essentially disappeared from America, because we just don't make stuff any more.

See the governor of Wisconsin who just put the kabosh on his part of a multi-state high-speed rail line.

Quote:

Not true at all. Business 2 biggest lies are taxes and lack of skilled employees. They are shipping jobs overseas for 1 reason only and that is for higher profits but it is now canibalistc practice.

I gotta agree with jms here. Business isn't dying due to "excessive taxation and lack of skilled workers". Nor "government interference". Unless you are talking about things like EPA or OSHA regulation to keep certain businessness from poisoning it's neighbors, our environment, and killing it's workers. Nothing wrong with that type of regulation at all. And yes, some American businesses are certainly going overseas to get around that. That is a moral/ethical problem, and those businesses don't deserve to thrive, IMO. And looking backwards in American history, "unregulated business" didn't drive growth, nor create a middle class. It elevated a small percentage of ultra-rich, and kept the rest in poverty. Sorta like exactly what is happening again, now.

Riot	12-31-2010 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 738592)

There is none. Governmnt needs to think out of the box and give incentives to these people to get back to work as quickly as possible.

Right now America's infrastructure is dangerously crumbling. The government could do a massive work hiring program to both fix this and put hundreds of thousands back to work, but that is met with overwhelming screaming against the spending, and the pooh-poohing that those jobs are temporary over just a few years.

How is this unemployment crisis supposed to be corrected? By cutting business taxes? That hasn't worked for the past 10 years, those policies oversaw the loss of 800,000 jobs. Frankly, the auto company bailouts worked, as it made what's left lean, mean and profitable, including payback for those loans. But the scale was too small, and the new auto mfg paradigm cuts thousands of jobs permanently. We need to invest in manufacturing within the US. Other countries are already far ahead of us in doing that.

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