:wf

Bluegrass Cat VS Rockport Harbor

Giacomo VS Mine That Bird

Colonel John VS Sea Hero

Jazil VS D' Tara

Denis of Cork vs. Steppenwolfer

(Winner advances to face Andromeda's Hero)

Wait. Weren't we talking about how Hansel and Dinard were running leading up to the derby, and why Dinard wasn't the lock I thought he was? I'm not sure what your points have to do with the original purpose of our comparisons. I certainly don't.

By the way, were you aware that Hansel ran in the Kentucky Derby and ran fifth by over 10 lengths? Do you think that if a healthy Dinard had run in the derby, that Hansel would have picked it up and ran better?

At the time that race was run, most of the Euro commentators of the day stated that field was terrible. Arazi galloped and could have won by about 40.

A healthy and fit Arazi, yeah, that might have been a different story in his derby.

Taking into consideration that Indy was likely not peaking at the SA Derby, combined with a retardedly low figure for that race (what, no split variant?), I think it's safe to take the Peter Pan as a more realistic expectation of what Indy was going to do in his next start (which was his next start!), the Ky. Derby. If you take that approach, their preps were really not far apart at all, and again, that 95 BSF is moronic.

Who compared them as stallions?

I've got another question for you. Say for the moment that I agree with everything you are saying here. Say also AP Indy does indeed run in the race. Does Lil E. Tee go off favored over Indy? I'm going to guess that almost everyone, besides you, would realize that 95 figure is bullshid and that Indy would have gone off as the strong favorite. What's your thought on that?

How exactly was that 95 figure BS?

The race went 2 full seconds slower than Another Review's race the same day.

Why would they split the variant? Was there some extreme weather conditions that day ... or was it just a case of the Santa Anita track superintendant trying to slow the track down as much as possible before the race - and trying to speed it up to normal after the race - in hopes of fooling the figure makers?

Bottom line ... the winner of that race was scratched from his next start because of a physical issue. The 2nd place finisher and 3rd place finisher both didn't win a single race the rest of the year.

Maybe Another Review should have got a 124 and A P Indy a 105?

Rockport when healthy

Giacomo

Sea Hero

This one is actually easy...

D'TARA

Well your other contention was that Dinard was lengths better than both Best Pal and Hansel (thus he was a lock). That almost certainly was not the case.

Actually, Hansel ran 10th as the favorite. Considering both his final prep efforts and subsequent classic runs, isn't that effort a bit of an anomaly?

And yet I'm sure Dinard couldn't possibly have thrown in a clunker (if he could actually make it to the starting gate), even though reports were that he was training poorly over the CD surface.

Did you cry?

8f. Even up to 9f. I think beyond that, they start to even out. Depending on who else was in the race and how the pace played out, they might never catch KG going 10f. But at 8f, I don't think they'd have a chance of catching him.

Track supers do weird things. Figure makers do exactly what you describe all the time. When they get a puzzling result, they love splitting variants.

If you watch that race and thought, hmm, those horses are only about a 95 BSF quality type, then clearly your judgment is impaired. That was a terrific race, by terrific horses, and that figure was no way indicative of how good that race was.

You really should know by now that figures are often misleading, if not outright wrong.

Oh, and you neglected to answer my question about favoritism in the derby that year. Do you think Lil E. Tee was going to go off at lower odds than Indy?

If not, why? Just cause Indy had the expensive price tag and the fancy pedigree?

Maybe because people might have realized who was really the better horse, ridiculous figures or not?

Watching him progress through his races, he was a horse to me that was already really good and had a ton more upside to him. So, to my eyes, he was already better than Hansel and/or Best Pal and I fully expected him to keep getting better.


Sorry there, my mistake. I don't know why I thought he was fifth. I was probably overrating him??

I think his final two preps were really nice, but if there was an anomaly in his race record, those two races were it. As for his two classic wins, the Preakness was his shining moment, but Corporate Report and Mane Minister weren't much.

He never threw in a clunker.

As for those reports of him training poorly over the CD surface, I think that was entirely likely a result of his injury.

Facepalm.

Of course Lil E Tee would have been a bigger price ... he finished closely behind eventual Preakness winner Pine Bluff twice at Oaklawn.

Horses don't get bet in that race solely on the basis of big recent figs. I think both Charismatic and War Emblem had the fields highest last out figure going into the Derby ... and both were huge prices.

Variant splits are normally the result of extreme wind and weather. Again - the race was in early April - the winner was scratched out of his next race .. and the 2nd and 3rd place finishers didn't win a single race the rest of the year.

Whatever man.

Back then, it was not uncommon at all to see a lower level horse run a faster time than a stakes race on the same card and have the stakes race come back faster. Sometimes much faster.

At some point in the last five to ten years, some bright individual figured out that that makes them look kinda stupid.