Certianly all Pioneer of the Nile needs is 1 1/2 and the sweeping wide turns of Belmont, right?

Maybe so :D

He shouldn't dominate the discussion but his detractors are just being ridiculous. No matter the surface, he's not 26 lengths worse than Mine that Bird. Be honest. He's not worse than Luv Guv and Flying Private. He was better than Papa Clem on synthetic and in the Derby and today was destroyed by that horse. Perhaps he's not top 20 of his class on dirt. Perhaps he's best of his class on synthetics. But when a horse runs a race that's obviously well below his par after being very consistent up til then.....they are just being silly. His Derby didn't validate his backers and this Preakness didn't validate his detractors.

And it's not at all possible that this sudden loss of consistancy is because he has finally run over a dry dirt track?

Pioneerof Denial is what he should have been named. :D

well said

I think it is a good thing Rachel did not
run in the Derby. Mine that Bird is clearly
a tough horse.

So then if he faces Flying Private and Luv Guv again on a dry dirt track, you'd pick them over him? Be honest. The truth more than likely lies in the middle. He's not as good as his junk track races would have made it appear but he's not as bad as today either. I mean come on. If you put Forever Together on dirt, she's not going to lose to maiden winners. She'd probably lose to good dirt horses but at some point, talent overcomes the surface doesn't it? If he'd lost to all good horses, that's one thing. He was beaten by LUV GUV!! Come on.

he's no Luv Guv, and he's been consistent, but I wasn't impressed with the way he looked in his synthetic races. I was surprised by his derby finish. honestly I don't think he is anything special

Not as bad as he could have been. Mike Smith (and I am not a huge fan) ran a terrific race. Rail wasn't open and he picked some small, tight spots with a very gutsy horse.

That's all I'm saying. He's not special. He's not a world beater. He obviously clearly better on synthetic than on dirt. But he's not as bad as he showed today either. That result wasn't simply a matter of the race being on dry dirt anymore than the result of the Derby being because it was in the slop.

Like I said on the other board, he didn't look as comfortable today as in his other races, but that is sort of the big debate with him - He wouldn't improve on dirt and thus far he has shown that is the case.

I can think of other reasons to account for POTN's race today that don't have anything to do with dirt.

Maybe something happened to the horse?
Maybe he peaked at SA?

I don't know what his story is, but there is no way he is as bad as his finish indicated.

As for Friesan Fire, he had no business running in this race. I read some speculation on here that his hoof injury was minimal and 'probably' was just blood from some minor lacerations on the leg.

I remember reading 4-5 days after the derby that they were using some sort of gunk on his hoof that is commonly used in diabetics with circulation and periphery tissue problems. They said it seemed to be working and if things went well, they would run him.

It really didn't seem possible that either the injury was grossly exaggerated to being with, or even less likely, the grabbed quarter miraculously healed in two weeks.

LOL, It is amazing how 5 words can be so well chosen. Larry Jones and his wife are a credit to the game and I dearly hope his time away from it is short.

Please. The guy race-rode the whole damn field out of the gate.

He was impressive in that he won.
His last two on syn. were not that great.
The Lewis was a nice one.

They connections said he had put on weight,
he looked really good, his coat was nice, all this
after the Derby. Well he chucked a real clunker.
He had not done that before.

And I totally agree with that. Before the Derby, I never once said he would improve. I only said that I didn't think it was automatic that he wouldn't like it and would regress. Now, I'm on the side of those that said he wouldn't like it. But there is a difference between not liking a surface and running bad and not showing up at all. A lot of horses prefer one surface over another but I don't think you go from being a grade one winner on one to not even being able to beat maidens on another.

He's not going there. Baffert is taking him back to California, give him a little break and look forward to the rest of the year that includes the Breeders Cup in his own backyard.

Mine That Bird certainly got a great pace setup ... but he made an excellent account of himself for sure.

Looks like the tactic of having him jog and loaf through the very early stages has moved him up big time. Obviously.

I'm curious to see how he runs in the Belmont when you can't loaf away the early stages of the race and expect them to come back to you because the pace is often much slower. ... baring the entry of any speed sprinter types like High Finance or baring the entry of a dominant speed router like a Smarty Jones who was forced to brush off an insanely premature middle move from a Malibu winner.

To me RA is a dominant speed router - and I like MTB's Belmont chances better if she runs .. they won't let her have a Da Tara jog on an uncontested lead trip obviously.

Even though I thought RA was a cinch today .. I got burnt because I played against MTB underneath .. and I will eagerly play against him in the Belmont again if RA doesn't run.

RA saw real pace pressure today from a very good and very fresh speed horse coming off of a razor sharp win. Look at the horses who were also wide into the 1st turn and not far behind her ... I believe they were Friesan Fire, POTN, and General Quarters ... all of them were exhusted and beaten by a country mile.

Huh? Why think about races not run, when what's right in front of our eyes is pretty first class? :tro:

What racing needs right now it's getting, in spades and on national TV - a KY Derby winner who duplicated his impressive performance in the Preakness, but was beaten a length by a filly that just may be among the greats.

I wanted to say this.