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pgardn 03-09-2009 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan
I'll give a little science lesson, correct me if im wrong...


The human sperm cells are alive. They are sex cells that contain half of the genetic code needed to make up our 46 chromosones.

Ova cells are likewise alive. They contain the other half of the genetic code.

When a sperm cell enters an ova a new cell is made. This cell is too alive and it is called a zygote. The zygote has all 46 chromosones in tact (half coming from the father, half from the mother). You now have a human being. 46 chromosones = human.

When did life begin? WHEN DID IT EVER END? The father is alive, the mother is alive, the sperm are alive, the ova is alive, the zygote is alive...EVERTHING IS ALIVE!!!
So if you have a wet dream
its like the killing fields?

Is there a diff. between alive and human?
When does a cell become a human?
You said at conception... thats a problem then.
Do you realize how many humans die without
anyone even knowing?

IrishofNDMan 03-09-2009 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
So if you have a wet dream
its like the killing fields?
You sound like a moron now. I was just saying that everything is alive to begin with, and when fertilization takes place is it no longer alive? It has all the chromosomes to be human, so how is it not?

IrishofNDMan 03-09-2009 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
So if you have a wet dream
its like the killing fields?

Is there a diff. between alive and human?
When does a cell become a human?
You said at conception... thats a problem then.
Do you realize how many humans die without
anyone even knowing?
Death happens, murder SHOULD not. Are you not understanding this is the point being made. I can accept death, but not abortion which is MURDER!

Riot 03-09-2009 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
and therein lies the rub. there are some who think life begins at fertilization-so they will of course object to using the cells, regardless of where they'd otherwise end up-in this case, the trash.
True, and then to be consistent, they would have to be against much of modern human reproductive science. That would be saying that a couple isn't entitled to get any child from her egg and his sperm, if it resulted in a second or third fertilized egg being discarded and not used.

And that would make The Octo-Mom and her repro specialist, that injected her with eight viable fertilized eggs ... heros?

(Edit: actually Octo-Mom was injected with seven fertilized eggs, one split, two of those kids are twins)

pgardn 03-09-2009 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan
Death happens, murder SHOULD not. Are you not understanding this is the point being made. I can accept death, but not abortion which is MURDER!
So are birth control pills that shed a uterine lining with a zygote
murder or death? We are treading a very, very worn path.

Riot 03-09-2009 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan
When did life begin? WHEN DID IT EVER END? The father is alive, the mother is alive, the sperm are alive, the ova is alive, the zygote is alive...EVERTHING IS ALIVE!!!
You're right, bioethics are important, Irish, very important in all this.

Danzig 03-09-2009 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
True, and then to be consistent, they would have to be against much of modern human reproductive science. That would be saying that a couple isn't entitled to get any child from her egg and his sperm, if it resulted in a second or third fertilized egg being discarded and not used.

And that would make The Octo-Mom and her repro specialist, that injected her with eight viable fertilized eggs ... heros?
sorry, i'm too busy laughing at the killing field analogy above to take this seriously....whew. ok.

but yes, those arguments have been made, time and again. it's why those who don't worry about 'playing god' when they do in vitro always slay me when they suddenly get all religious about culling the eight fertilized eggs they had implanted in hopes one or two would take.

Danzig 03-09-2009 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan
Death happens, murder SHOULD not. Are you not understanding this is the point being made. I can accept death, but not abortion which is MURDER!

i guess i just don't understand what this has to do with stem cell research. but the two subjects are intertwined for some reason in many peoples' minds.

IrishofNDMan 03-09-2009 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
i guess i just don't understand what this has to do with stem cell research. but the two subjects are intertwined for some reason in many peoples' minds.
like i said, were they intertwined on election day???

pgardn 03-09-2009 07:07 PM
The Catholic Church has bio-ethics experts discussing this
constantly. The Catholic church is very careful
in considering all cases involving the use of human cells
to make some sort of decisions that make sense. From
reproductive technology, to using body cells/ stem cells
for research. This is horribly difficult.

So forgive me if you come waltzing in making such definitive
statements in an area where Science has got way ahead
of ethics. And not on purpose, not for some evil deed.
This is an area where many very religious people go through
a great deal of debate and agony because some
aspects are so complex.

Danzig 03-09-2009 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan
like i said, were they intertwined on election day???
no doubt they were. obama could be the answer to all our troubles, but a great many will not vote for certain candidates solely on their stance on abortion-which i believe is ridiculous.

Danzig 03-09-2009 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
The Catholic Church has bio-ethics experts discussing this
constantly. The Catholic church is very careful
in considering all cases involving the use of human cells
to make some sort of decisions that make sense. From
reproductive technology, to using body cells/ stem cells
for research. This is horribly difficult.

So forgive me if you come waltzing in making such definitive
statements in an area where Science has got way ahead
of ethics. And not on purpose, not for some evil deed.
This is an area where many very religious people go through
a great deal of debate and agony because some
aspects are so complex.
i doubt the catholic church EVER signs off on this. it wasn't long ago that they were still against blood transfusions and organ transplants. that's a group that won't condone condom use in africa to combat the aids epidemic because they feel 'all life is sacred'. well, not once you're here, they don't. i'd imagine a lot more lives would have been saved had they given the go ahead for condom use than what was prevented by using the same. and who knows how many kids over there were born with aids-sentenced to death essentially from birth, because we can't be using condoms folks!

steve 03-09-2009 07:56 PM
but right wing news articles are ok? and is casino gambling a conservative or liberal endeavor?

herkhorse 03-09-2009 07:58 PM
http://stixblog.com/wp-content/uploa...loutmascot.jpg

ArlJim78 03-09-2009 08:09 PM
let's leave it all up to scientists. what could go wrong?

pgardn 03-09-2009 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
i doubt the catholic church EVER signs off on this. it wasn't long ago that they were still against blood transfusions and organ transplants. that's a group that won't condone condom use in africa to combat the aids epidemic because they feel 'all life is sacred'. well, not once you're here, they don't. i'd imagine a lot more lives would have been saved had they given the go ahead for condom use than what was prevented by using the same. and who knows how many kids over there were born with aids-sentenced to death essentially from birth, because we can't be using condoms folks!
Under Pope Paul they had some very impressive people
to explain all the implications of this stuff. At least they
thought about it. And I am not saying I am disagreeing,
but the Catholic church is hardly some preacher who creates
some crazy church on his own and rails against beetles invading
our brains.

The condom stuff was set up a pretty long time ago.
A big mistake imo.

pgardn 03-09-2009 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
let's leave it all up to scientists. what could go wrong?
What we have to do is have some serious thought
about issues because science is gonna move on.
Huge things are happening in Biology that need
to be brought forth in a reasonable manner so
we have some idea on how to get a grip on this stuff.

You cant stop humans from thinking and innovating.
So the ethics people need to catch up with what is
really going on so serious discussion can take place.

Riot 03-09-2009 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
let's leave it all up to scientists. what could go wrong?
Do you think scientists have no ethics? No morality? Do you think government is unable to put on breaks at any given point if they wish?

Are scientists more capable of judging the validity of pursing stem cell research than people that believe dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together?

Hell yes, they are.

ArlJim78 03-09-2009 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Do you think scientists have no ethics? No morality? Do you think government is unable to put on breaks at any given point if they wish?

Are scientists more capable of judging the validity of pursing stem cell research than people that believe dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together?

Hell yes, they are.
Kevorkian, Mengele? great scientists and standouts on ethics, probably neither one believed that dinosaurs walked the earth with men either.

its foolish to think that scientists alone must lead the way.
FYI, this issue wasn't driven purely by science, it was driven mainly by politics.


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