Dahoss that picture is from Bloodhorse right now and the article is up there too. Sensational was Barbaro's Derby.

Really hesitated about chiming in here...but I will anyways.

I am a huge fan of this horse. When a great many of us were over on ESPN, I was begging for the Jackson's to keep this horse on the grass....thought he had the chance to be an incredibly special turf horse. I told anyone that would listen that he would be your Derby winner.

Call me a baby, but I cried for an hour after the Preakness....my heart had been broken. After he broke down, I was elated that he would be saved and hung on that prospect for an awfully long time. But, as more complications have begun to arise, I just continue to see ZERO quality of life in the near and distant future. Putting him down would be the correct thing to do, IMO.:(

Dahoss,
Very low. I didn't post it for a pat on the back and said as much from the beginning....Weak man.

Understood.

Im not a horsey person,
but why kill a horse with a good pedigree that has every chance to be a good stallion?

does he want to live?
I have no freaking clue and I could not care any less.

but if you can save him, then do it.
we need more than just El Prado as a top turf sire in this country.

The advances today are absolutley amazing horses that would have been put down 5 years ago are now treatable even broken legs can be fixed ( used to be instant death sentence) ive seen alot of horse injuries from ripped out legs to lighting strikes & it has allways amazed me the massive healing power of horses so i wouldnt be giving up on the horse just yet .One thing you can be absolutley sure of the vets treating the problem would not continue if they thought there was no hope or the the horse was in absolute pain.
Just wondering do they feed horses alot of sellium over there? laminitis is becomming quite rare down here.

the only thing i'm really thinking about all this is i sure hope the jacksons don't read this thread. they are living this on a daily basis. we can sit here and abstractly pronounce what should be done, or shouldn't. fact is, unless and until one of us is in this same situation, we don't have a clue what we would do.

hindsight is 20-20. we know NOW that barbaro has had setbacks. they didn't know going in that all this would happen. they knew there could be and probably would be complications.. looking back, it does seem like a lot...but that's when you encapsulate months and months into a few minutes of looking back....

also, dr richardson said that money was no object, that the jacksons would do this regardless of the horses real or perceived value-if this was all about money, barbaro would have been put down and insurance paid out.

the odds have been slim from day one. 5% when they discovered the laminitis.

fact is, if he survives a month, a year, or ten years-if he ends up passing due to the laminitis there will be posts galore saying 'see, he shoulda been put down'.

Good discussion. I don't know what the proper thing to do is. I am not degreed in veterenary science. Don't know pain thresholds of animals. Don't know how bad off he is. I honestly don't have a clue, and really have no opinion on this matter as I simply don't knwo enough about it. I did approve of the effort to save his life.

depends what part of the coutry you live in...certain areas like the Northeast and nrthwest have soil that is selenium deficient...and many people supplement (although they don't need to since local feed companies cater to the region and add it to their grain mixes)...other parts have adequate amounts in the soil, and there are places that actually have too much, areas of the southwest (New Mexico, Arizona) ...as selenium is toxic...

What does selenium do? (GR happily sits down at her school desk and prepares to learn something... :) )

if you're deficient, you can have intestinal disorders. also is believed to combat cancer in humans...

of course there is a connection between gastro-intestinal disorders and laminitis.

selenium is a supplement that is added to livestock feed....

here, i did a search.....

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/002414.htm

Thanks, Danzig! Very interesting.
(GR raises hand)
So, it's added to feed to try to prevent gastro-intestinal disorders? I see now what it does for (and to) humans, but how, specifically, does it benefit/adversely affect the equine?

did another search.....

http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/petcolumns/s...cle.cfm?id=181

in a nutshell...


Clinically, selenium deficient horses will often 'tie-up,' a degenerative condition of the
muscles also known as rhabdomyolysis," says Dr. Scoggins. "It can affect the heart muscle,
the muscles of respiration, as well as the large muscles of the

back and limbs. It can also cause a decrease in the efficiency of the immune system, leading
to opportunistic infections."

A horse that has rhabdomyolosis will have severe muscle cramps resulting in sweating,
stiffness, and increased pulse. The breakdown of muscle cells can result in coffee-colored
urine. "Do not walk a horse that is tied up," stresses Dr. Scoggins.

That's REALLY interesting (I am always fascinated how different minerals and vitamins affect the body's workings). Thank you!

So if you shouldn't walk a horse that is tied up, what should one do?... Wait, I should go read the second article myself, huh? I'll go do that now. ;)

i don't think it says what you should do....

fluids and a blanket for starters i'd imagine. and call the vet.

back to google...

Tying Up
PREPARED BY: Cheryl Sutor [1998]


The following list contains the possible symptoms of Tying Up. Tying up is usually exercise-related. Symptoms below are most likely to appear within the first 1/2 hour of work. Some horses may not exhibit all symptoms. Tying up seems to be more common in young Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds who are either not fit or high strung, however, it can occur in any breed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most common symptoms:
Obvious discomfort
Abnormally short strides, muscle stiffness
Difficulty in movement. Horse may refuse to move
Muscle hardening/contracting with hindquarter spasms, mostly in croup area
Elevated pulse & respiration

Possible additional symptoms:
Flaring of the nostrils
Slow capillary refill time
Pawing
Pale gums
Sweating
Short, stiff gait
Brown colored urine


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Management of Tying Up

Call your veterinarian immediately. Ask the veterinarian if you should administer any treatment prior to his arrival. Ask what you may do to comfort your horse until he arrives.

Do NOT move your horse! Moving your horse even a few steps may make the condition even worse. However, you do want to keep him on his feet.

Protect the horse from chills by using a blanket.

Encourage the horse to drink, it will help flush his kidneys of waste.

Why do horses become Tied-up?

A horse becomes tied-up when his muscles have been overworked. The muscles become damaged from toxic by-products that are produced during the work. These toxic by-products are produced from the blood's inability to carry enough oxygen to the muscles. High glycogen content and abnormal polysaccharide in the muscles. Sometimes, defective calcium regulation. When a horse ties up repeatedly, it may lead to kidney damage.

What can you do to prevent Tying-up?

Feed a low or no-carbohydrate diet with high fat. Warm up and cool down your horse properly with at least 15 minutes of walking. Don't exercise the horse to a point where it is stressful. Provide turnout as often as possible.

hey GR...Danzig pretty much covered it but since I know you like to know stuff...read this one...why tying up used to be called 'monday morning sickness'
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/horse_talk/61483

the trainers here could probably tell stories about 2 YO fillies that tie up...for some reason the high strung girls do it a lot...
yearling fillies like to do it at the sales too...when they did it was usually mild, we'd give them some bute paste, a little Ace to relax them, and some electrolytes...

A little trivia...another name for tying up is azoturia. I used to have to know all of this stuff for all of those competitions that I went to as a youth. I can't believe I still remember some of it...lol.

When we supplemented selenium, we supplemented vitamin E at the same time. I can't tell you why (it's been way too long :eek: ), but I remember it had something to do with an inbalance if you didn't. Does anyone know anything about this? I'm getting too old. LOL

has to do with bio-availability...but I'm getting old too...i can't remember exactly...one limits the uptake of the other if i remember right...

I never said that you could not have an opinion just that yours as well as all of us here were not 'qualified' opinions.

It takes zero courage to offer an opinion on an internet message board.
Comparing the KY derby winner and a 5 claimer seems a bit stupid. And dont give me all that crap about they are all God's creatures. That these people have choosen to try to save the horse surely is not a negative thing.

You're pretty much right. You usually have to supplement selenium in cases of white muscle disease, azoturia...etc. Vitamin E and selenium work together, and are used especially in the treatment of white muscle disease in foals. Vitamin E prevents the breakdown of cells, and selenium aids in the absorption of vitamin E through the tissues.

I must say that this is probably the most civilized discussion of Barbaro's potential fate I have seen-- I'm impressed! It's hard not to get carried away with emotions, no matter which side you're on... no one wants to see this horse suffer, but then again, the horse deserves every fighting chance at a decent life.

I hope Barbaro doesn't have to be euthanized, and as of now I trust that if he hasn't been put down, there is a good reason for it. However, if he does have to be put down, I also understand that there was also a valid reason for doing so. I have never seen the colt in person so I don't feel comfortable saying what should or should not happen to him; like I said, I'm trusting the judgement of those who are around him day in and day out. Each day that I check all the horse racing websites and see that Barbaro is still alive and well, I'm happy.

Randalll, your heart is in the right place but trust me on thisl, you DO know if they've given up. Horse's absolutely won't eat if they are sick or suffering, that is exactly one of the ways we gauge their general outlook. My horse Rhage suffered a severe case of Laminitis and had to have the very same surgery Barbaro did, it was awful getting to that point and seeing her in such intense pain, and if she had shown me at anytime that she was suffering I lover her enough to have let go, but she had a brightness in her eyes and was so accomodating that even the Vets remarked how intelligent she was to help them help her. 16 months later after numerous xrays, foot wrappings, pain medications, and intense ups and downs, she is now able to lead a normal life, her foot will never look the same, as will Barbaro's, but she's alive, happy and deserving of every attempt to save her. In fact I just came in the house from feeding her and she ran up to me bucking, kicking and squealing with anticipation for her carrots.!

I trust the people close to Barbaro, who know him inside and out, and love him, will not let him suffer.

Wonderful post. Thank you and congrats on your mare getting well. Hopefully Barbaro will get there too.

Vitamin E deficiency lowers selenium absorption and utilization which is why many selenium supplements also contain Vit. E. Unfortunately, unless the Vit E has been stabilized, it only has a shelf life of a couple weeks.

Suzanne(WHY do I know this???)

lol

yeah, i ask myself that about trivia. hell, i can name every king and queen of england in chronological order from william the conqueror. yet it doesn't pay the bills.....:rolleyes:

Danzig and Paisjpg, thanks for the links-- I logged off yesterday morning and didn't get back online until this morning, so I just read them all. Very interesting stuff. It IS funny what our minds choose to retain, isn't it?

News is better on Mr. B this morning:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37086

Oops, sorry for posting a link that had been posted earlier. See what I miss when I get off DT for more than a few hours? :)

thanks suzanne:) I knew that one of them limited the other just couldn't remember how exactly...

that's funny...i'm a useless knowledge junkie myself...but I don't know the english royal family...you win :p :D

I have only this to say: The Jacksons and Dr. Richardson have the best interest of Barbaro in their minds and in their actions. I respect that they are doing the right thing. In my opinion, Barbaro has conveyed to them his will to live. I am happy and optimistic that he can recover and lead a life of quality.