Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 1152947)

My definition of Performance enhancing will include anything to mask pain. It is a natural instinct when feeling pain to not go to your maximum effort.. But you are far more schooled in these sciences.. Am I off in my thinking?

Originally Posted by moses (Post 1152951)

That’s my thought. My wife just gave birth last Wednesday (the baby was due in April but waited until after Derby Day, maybe she wanted to avoid seeing another Baffert horse win it?). Anyway, she got an epidural beforehand and it sure seems like it enabled her to push through the pain. Different drug but same concept - mask the pain and the horse doesn’t know it’s supposed to be hurting and just keeps running. But I defer to those with more knowledge on the topic.

This makes me worry about the entire sport though. How many people are going to read this story and say: “So they’re allowed to mask pain up to a certain point through the use of certain drugs. But if training and racing hurts these horses and they can’t train/race without painkillers and other drugs, why are we even allowing this?” To a lot of outside observers, that’s going to sound like animal cruelty.

Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 1152953)

First off Congratulations. Secondly the medication debate has been going on for years and will continue after we both are gone.

Originally Posted by Conrad (Post 1152966)

With Medina in, how can anyone bet this race?
The MJC & Stronach made a grievous error here and I hope it costs them dearly at the windows.

Originally Posted by Conrad (Post 1152966)

With Medina in, how can anyone bet this race?
The MJC & Stronach made a grievous error here and I hope it costs them dearly at the windows.

Originally Posted by robfla (Post 1152935)

Now blaming it on Otomax.

https://twitter.com/KySportsRadio/st...851397/photo/1

Originally Posted by richard burch (Post 1152932)

Well then that is a punishment problem within the sport itself in the U.S. If you let them off with a slap on the wrist they will keep doing it. 3 Strikes and ban them for life, fine with me.

Originally Posted by richard burch (Post 1152971)

A very convenient alibi. Lets say we rubbed it on him but didn't know what was in it so we can cover up the injections we give him with the same drug.

That is like saying all that THC in my system came from the hemp oil I rub on my ass that I got at CVS. :wf

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 1152956)

It’s tricky. It’s not a true pain killer but more to treat inflammation. I would think they use it after a tough workout to take down swelling and have horse heal faster. Like a suped up ibuprofen delivered directly to the joints. It has a very short half life and really if was going to mask pain would need to be given real close to race day. The levels here show that not to be true. However the rules state not within 14 days of a race which clearly was broken. Remember it’s legal drug and has its place if uses as governed.

Originally Posted by -BT- (Post 1152968)

I was thinking the same thing, how are we, the betting public, supposed to feel any sort of confidence that we're getting a fair shake and know that everyone is playing on a level playing field when something like this just happened 2 weeks ago on the biggest stage in the sport, and the same connections are allowed to run like nothing happened? You have a trainer who was just ruled off of Churchill Downs, admitted to using a banned substance, but business as usual and on to the second leg of the triple crown.

This is my dilemma.

1) I can blow this whole thing off and keep churning that money into the window, maybe even fading Baffert knowing he has zero margin for error in giving whatever banned substances he's giving.

or

2) Step away, keep my money in my pocket and hit this sport and the powers that be where it hurts, by not wagering.

I know by keeping my money in my pocket I'm not supporting the 99% of the rest of the industry who's playing by the rules, but seriously when is enough enough? I've been on the fence about the industry for the last few years, specifically about this issue, but nothing has changed, so give me a reason to believe I'm not throwing good money after bad in a sport that doesn't really care about a level playing field or the money it costs those who are under the impression that everyone is playing by the rules.

-bt-

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes (Post 1152973)

And I never believed them when they said “ that Richard Burch doesn’t smoke weed, he just rubs hemp oil on his ass instead.” My bad.

Originally Posted by Conrad (Post 1152966)

With Medina in, how can anyone bet this race?
The MJC & Stronach made a grievous error here and I hope it costs them dearly at the windows.

Originally Posted by Dahoss (Post 1152934)

I’ve given this some more thought and I’m trying to be as unbiased as possible here.

Let’s ignore the 7 horses dropping dead on Baffert with no explanation from late 2011 to early 2013. Not sure why to ignore it, but we will and just focus on the last few years.

In 2019, 17 months after he had won the SA Derby (and eventually the triple crown) it was revealed Justify had failed a drug test after the SA Derby. He tested positive for scopolamine, and it was blamed on naturally growing Jimsom weed the horse had probably consumed. The CHRB covered it up for nearly a year and a half, before dismissing the case.

In 2020, Gamine and Charlatan both tested positive for lidocaine after their respective races at Oaklawn. The positives were blamed on a patch Baffert assistant Jimmy Barnes was wearing.

Later in the year Gamine failed another post race test. This time in the Kentucky Oaks. It was revealed she tested positive for an overage of betamethasone. This time Baffert claimed the medication was given to Gamine at the proper time to allow for it to be gone from her system in time, but it still showed up.

In October, yet another Baffert runner, Merneith, was found to have failed a test in July, for dextrophan. This time Baffert blamed it on one of his grooms who had Covid, that was taking an the counter cough syrup.

Fast forward to now. Medina Spirit failed a post race test in the country’s marquee event, for the same substance Gamine was in the Oaks last year. Baffert has gone on multiple shows, had impromptu press conferences blaming everything from a groom pissing in the stall to cancel culture.

Let’s assume for a second that Baffert really is unlucky and all of these instances are not his fault. It doesn’t speak well for him as someone in charge of an operation. In fact, some might question how he is able to obtain such impressive results, since he seems to struggle with basics. At the end of the day the buck should stop with him. I get that he’s an easy going guy but at what point do you try and clean it up a little?

On the flip side, as the unofficial “face” of the sport of racing, Baffert has enjoyed almost universal media praise for decades now. He’s been able to use that praise for his benefit and his bank account has continued to grow based on it. He has a responsibility to be better. To not be sloppy with things like this.

Watching him yesterday was interesting because I think we got to see the real Baffert. Not the smooth, jovial Baffert he gives us during post draws and quick interviews before races. This was the woe is me Baffert. Baffert the victim. Baffert the guy that been enabled by racing boards, the media, racing jurisdictions, stewards, etc for far too long. In an instant all of the good faith he has built up is kind of gone because he tarnished the Derby.

I couldn’t help but think back to the raw footage trackside during the 2011 Santa Anita Handicap inquiry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRw8Lj2MGp4

It’s a fascinating look at Baffert at work and how some of his colleagues feel about him. Baffert even says to Mandella “you want to win it fair,” and Mandella doesn’t appear amused. You even get to see a tongue tied Baffert when he gets caught lying.

At the end of the day I suspect Baffert has had an edge for a long time. I can’t prove it, but where there is smoke there is fire. I don’t think these overages the last few years have anything to do with his edge. I think this is just sloppy work by Baffert and by those who he employs. I used to not understand why Baffert thinks he’s above the law, but it makes sense now. He hasn’t been properly punished for his transgressions. The multiple slaps on the wrist have not deterred anything.

Racing has a real issue to deal with. The race that even non racing fans know about has an integrity issue. This isn’t like the DQ two years ago...this is more. I won’t pretend to know what to do but without integrity we have nothing. The sad thing is all of this could have been avoided if the guy who likes to push the envelope just played by the same rules everyone else does. It’s not a coincidence Baffert has had a horse test over the limit in the Oaks and Derby in back to back years.

Baffert has no one to blame but himself.

Originally Posted by Mike (Post 1153007)

Should we just cave in and embrace this darker, seedier side of horse racing? Could producing a Narcos style Netflix series that depicts a Baffert-like trainer, high society clients and Arab sheiks create an explosion of interest in the game?

Why do we even think it will ever change. Baffert will win the Derby next year

Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 1153010)

My introduction to horse racing came watching the movie “The Black Stallion”. I learned then that they cheat and I’ve worked under the assumption that everyone cheats from the very beginning. I’m just not gonna sit here and talk about the integrity of the sport when I’ve never believed there was much to begin with so nothing surprises me. I can sit here and act like I’m so appalled and outraged but I know I’ll be betting on the weekend....on Baffert’is horses....so what would be the point?

Originally Posted by moses (Post 1153021)

Lukas isn’t helping with the public perception of the sport.

https://twitter.com/downeyprofile/st...877315590?s=21

Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 1153010)

My introduction to horse racing came watching the movie “The Black Stallion”. I learned then that they cheat and I’ve worked under the assumption that everyone cheats from the very beginning. I’m just not gonna sit here and talk about the integrity of the sport when I’ve never believed there was much to begin with so nothing surprises me. I can sit here and act like I’m so appalled and outraged but I know I’ll be betting on the weekend....on Baffert’s horses....so what would be the point?

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan (Post 1153022)

Before the cancel culture gets any more carried away, here’s what Lukas really said to a real TV station.

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/bob-b...ainer/36412469

Originally Posted by moses (Post 1153021)

Lukas isn’t helping with the public perception of the sport.

https://twitter.com/downeyprofile/st...877315590?s=21

Originally Posted by OldDog (Post 1153034)

I think context is important. Between those 2 quoted sentences he also said,

“Obviously (21) picograms or whatever that horse had had no effect on the race or his performance. And every vet and every scientist and every lab will tell you that.”

Originally Posted by OldDog (Post 1153034)

I think context is important. Between those 2 quoted sentences he also said,

“Obviously (21) picograms or whatever that horse had had no effect on the race or his performance. And every vet and every scientist and every lab will tell you that.”

Originally Posted by OldDog (Post 1153034)

I think context is important. Between those 2 quoted sentences he also said,

“Obviously (21) picograms or whatever that horse had had no effect on the race or his performance. And every vet and every scientist and every lab will tell you that.”

Originally Posted by moses (Post 1153052)

Even with that addition, his comment is incredibly tone deaf and his attitude is the exact reason there was a need for federal legislation to regulate the industry. Clearly people in the industry can’t do it themselves.

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 1153041)

The lower level excuse doesn’t matter. It’s above the limit of detection and demonstrates the drug was given inside the window it’s was allowed. Sure at that time of race it probably had no impact but still is against rules. I still call bull on the vet not knowing it was in otomax. It’s a key ingredient

Originally Posted by richard burch (Post 1153066)

100% Correct.

It's total BS. It just gave him another alibi to build on.

I liked BB. I trusted BB and I was made a fool by BB. In all the years I have watched this sport I have never been so let down but BB is only half of this Preakness problem.

Pimlico had a chance to say that cheating will not be tolerated. Instead they caved in like a sinkhole and should be ashamed for letting him participate in this race knowing that he broke the rules and has already been DQ'd and banned from racing in KY.

I don't care if you stick a camera up both of their asses until post time, it is not fair to the public, the jockeys , the bettors and all the other connections that have to race with a different set of rules than the so-called elite.

If BB had some courage and truly cared about the longevity and character of the sport and not how many trophy's he can get then he would have dropped out himself and wait for that split sample to confirm that he broke the rules. I am still waiting to hear some sort of apology but I guess it won't happen.

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 1153041)

The lower level excuse doesn’t matter. It’s above the limit of detection and demonstrates the drug was given inside the window it’s was allowed. Sure at that time of race it probably had no impact but still is against rules. I still call bull on the vet not knowing it was in otomax. It’s a key ingredient

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis (Post 1153080)

Hypothetical Question - let's assume for a moment that Rosario's iron doesn't slip on Rock Your World at the break, Asmussen actually instructs Smith to go on Midnight Bourbon (the only chance the horse had, BTW) and now Medina Spirit is pressed on the lead the whole way, fades as expected in the stretch due to pace pressure, and finishes a faltering (and expected) 8th or 9th.

How would that affect the perspective? I'd venture a bet that this would be the biggest non-story since the last time he got caught.

Instead the racing world is upside-down over it because the horse won, thus the automatic assumption by the media and casual fans of the sport is that the horse won because of this overage, not because he was allowed to walk the whole way, against one of the most horrid fields in recent history.

Context would be helpful. And it would have been refreshing to see Lukas explain that, and why the perceived cause/effect is not accurate, rather than giving Baffert a pass and adding more fuel to the fire.

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis (Post 1153080)

Hypothetical Question - let's assume for a moment that Rosario's iron doesn't slip on Rock Your World at the break, Asmussen actually instructs Smith to go on Midnight Bourbon (the only chance the horse had, BTW) and now Medina Spirit is pressed on the lead the whole way, fades as expected in the stretch due to pace pressure, and finishes a faltering (and expected) 8th or 9th.

How would that affect the perspective? I'd venture a bet that this would be the biggest non-story since the last time he got caught.

Instead the racing world is upside-down over it because the horse won, thus the automatic assumption by the media and casual fans of the sport is that the horse won because of this overage, not because he was allowed to walk the whole way, against one of the most horrid fields in recent history.

Context would be helpful. And it would have been refreshing to see Lukas explain that, and why the perceived cause/effect is not accurate, rather than giving Baffert a pass and adding more fuel to the fire.

Originally Posted by moses (Post 1153084)

Agreed on all that, except I really don’t think Midnight Bourbon would have impacted the race. He’s not fast enough, in my opinion. We may find out tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis (Post 1153080)

Hypothetical Question - let's assume for a moment that Rosario's iron doesn't slip on Rock Your World at the break, Asmussen actually instructs Smith to go on Midnight Bourbon (the only chance the horse had, BTW) and now Medina Spirit is pressed on the lead the whole way, fades as expected in the stretch due to pace pressure, and finishes a faltering (and expected) 8th or 9th.

How would that affect the perspective? I'd venture a bet that this would be the biggest non-story since the last time he got caught.

Instead the racing world is upside-down over it because the horse won, thus the automatic assumption by the media and casual fans of the sport is that the horse won because of this overage, not because he was allowed to walk the whole way, against one of the most horrid fields in recent history.

Context would be helpful. And it would have been refreshing to see Lukas explain that, and why the perceived cause/effect is not accurate, rather than giving Baffert a pass and adding more fuel to the fire.