he was set at even money on the morning line, which blew my mind. i mean, this wasn't the jcgc, this was the bcc! and i said all along not to single him, i chose ouija to single--so it's not like i'm dog piling on now.

I agree with you that Invasor has a better chance of beating Bernie at 1 1/4 miles than 1 1/8 miles. But even at 1 1/4 miles, if you had a 5 horse field in New York that didn't have much pace, I think that I would have to bet on Bernie.

Personally, I disliked the horse himself
he's a real ass, and owned by the sand monkeys

Well then, I have to say I didn't see you saying any of that before the race, but I'll take your word for it, and congratulations, you were right.

I just can't stand when people try to sound like geniuses after the fact.

Noone is talking about betting Ateam.
At least I'm not. I don't think his odds had much to do with anything really.
And yeah he was great, I said it at least 3 times today on various threads. Its just that if you went back and read some of the **** that you and others posted to people who had doubts, you'd see what the deal was here.
Lets face it, you are now batting .500 on these deals. I don't forget anything. You were the original talk **** king on GZ, when others had doubts. And you were one obnoxious dude after he kicked ass in the BCC, you got your licks in on everyone and deservedly so. You called the shot, and you got the spoils. This time you didn't, and I expected you to suck up and take it like a man.

i felt pretty well about invasor, said all last week not to shrug him off due to the layoff--barbaro taught me that you don't ignore a horse based on just having time away....been on invasor all year. i remember when i was defending lava man after one of his wins, more than one person asked if i felt so good about LM that he was my bcc pick. i said no, that i was backing invasor. just thought lava man got hammered too much, hell he won all but once all year.

doesn't really matter tho, i couldn't put my money where my mouth was on any of the racing.

All I was ever saying is it is tough to run in large fields with a bunch of good horses. Bernardini ran a very good race and I now have more respect for such a talented 3 year old. He faced a large fairly tough field and responded admirably. People just dont understand that a horse does not necessarily have to win to earn respect. Smarty Jones impressed me more in the Belmont than any other race I saw him run. That race put him in a special category. But of course a horse has to win... for some people. Mineshaft running a fantastic race against Perfect Drift also put him in a new category for me. These horses just did not give in, they gave everything they had. That is one of the things that defines a great animal for me.

Too bad we wont have the pleasure of watching him run again. I think with a better strategy, a little maturity, and an understanding that this was not the same type of field, Bernardini could indeed win a tough race like he just lost. He could have been one of the great ones, no doubt about that. Only 3 years old. Its really sad for me.

And what about you? Youve been sucking on Circular Quay's horse C o c k since the summer. He was supposed to be the next coming according to you and he wasnt very close to the winner on BC day. I heard you and a bunch of his fans talking all this mess about CQ. What happened to him?

Yes, I saw that poster and that is what I was talking about. Marketing people often get it wrong when they try to simplify things.

Yes a great horse might attract casual people and some of them may hang around and become long term fans. I just think in the long run it doesn't convert many. My main point was that I think that there was one great horse that was overlooked by everyone including the marketers. To bring in the most viewers they should have billed it as a battle of the worlds best, US (East and West), South America (Invasor), Europe (George and Junior).

Glad that's over.

many a horse has gained more respect in defeat than some have with a win! that was demonstrated so often over the years with true handicapping races. sad that those have gone by the wayside, everyone so scared of losing anymore, regardless of how the horse looks in defeat.

i think i'm coming across this evening as being irritated by bernardini...fact is i'm pissed that he won't be back. that we have only have a handful of races from him--he's through. that run in the half dark the other day was it. and THAT stinks. i hope i never see the words 'sheik mo' and 'sportsman' together again.

Jim, that would have been a great idea! You shoulda sold it to the Breeders Cup! People eat up that nationality stuff. 'Tiznow wins it for America' You need to get into their marketing dept. because I think they did a poor job of marketing this year. Relied too much on Bernardini and that bit them in the ass. I'll be there to chance things for the 09 Breeders Cup with my sports marketing degree :D

That really would have been a damn good idea. I never even thought of that. Excellent idea on pitting regions against one another and getting people up for the race. Its been done before of course, but your groupings look very good now.

Beat to the punch by first sat... just read it after I posted.

Small field and no pace? Basically it would be a match race. This could put things more in Bernardinis favor but personally, I would bet on Invasor every time at 10 F against Bernardini, regardless of the size of the field. The field size would give both of them no excuse but I just think Invasor once he gets rolling would get past Bernardini. NY tracks are more speed favoring though so it would not be easy.

Sadly this is once again just a fantasy for people like us to debate on this board.

It's all irrelavant nonesense. The string borders on childishness.

What happened , happened. Bernadini proved to be a very good three year old and nothing more. Invasor has beaten G1 older horses before and during the BC races. It's a fact. It's history, it's over.

Bernadini will never prove superiority on the track since he's retired to salvage his Stud Value. In the end he will be an afterthought, unless he can reproduce a champion.

Great races this weekend.

NC Tony

Nope, that's not correct either. There were numerous threads, before the fact, where several people tried to point out that Invasor was a serious threat to Bernardini. No matter what was said, getting through to some of the Bernardini people was futile. They acted like they knew it all. To use your words, "they tried to sound like geniuses".

Here is an example.

http://derbytrail.com/forums/showthr...1037#post81037

Alright then, do it right! Okay?

Atta boy Tony...represent with that Tarheel logo baby....our boys will kick ass and take names this year brotha....great returning squad and one of the best incoming classes in the country

Thanks, I'll be here all week!

Have you guys won a football game?

we have a football team????:eek:

YES...we have 1 win against the mighty powerhouse FURMAN:o

So Tell me how is that relavant to Horse Racing P?

NC Tony

YES....this is a horse racing thread:D

this is not right. i am a long-time opponent of bernardini fans and the horse's ownership. but terms like that are just plain racist and have no place on this board. if you want to be a racist....fine there are plenty of racist websites around. go join one.
this is a horse racing board.....where everyone who loves horse racing should feel welcome. ignorant and pejorative terms like "sand monkey" do not belong here.

As usual, you miss the point. All I said was that I didn't see Zeigler stating before the race that Bernardini shouldn't be even money and anyone who singles him is crazy, as she was saying afterwards.

Missed the point? Hardly.

Over and over you were quick to characterize someone with the label "postrace genius", without even considering what may have been said pre-race. examples;
"I just can't stand when people try to sound like geniuses after the fact" and
"The point is it's much easier to ridicule those who bet Bernardini to even money and singled him after he loses" and "Ah yes, another postrace genius."

I was trying to point out to you that much was said pre-race, and that you might want to consider that before jumping to more conclusions.

Sounds like the Bernardini fans can dish it, but not take it...

Do you know how many threads we would see if he won that would say how stupid the doubters were...

There were quotes like these:

He's here, the horse we have been all waiting for and some don't appreciate him...

He's going to get his Coronation...

and multiple quotes of arrogance of how he easily would win the BCC...

He didn't and now the people who questioned him are right, that's okay, this game changes we could all be wrong about the next thing, but if we are arrogant enough to say some of the things said about Bernardini, we should get some ribbing as well...I think he's a very good horse, not great or one of the greats, but very good and I think I overvalued him, I gave him about a 75%-80% chance of winning and that was probably too high, but it more than worked out for me...

Get over it and say you were wrong, dead wrong, in fact you couldn't have been more wrong, but I doubt we'll see it...

And congrats to Arljim, he's one that I remember for a long time saying how good Invasior was....

Your first point is well taken and absolutely the truth.
Ateam dished it out just fine after Ghostzapper destroyed his rivals. He deserved to. Ateam was certain no distance would stop him long before he even went two turns. Thats cool, you call the shot you get to talk smack.
But looks like he can't take it so well, and a few others either. Pathetic that they can talk smack for 3 or 4 months and post pictures, whatever, and then act indignant when he loses.

Well thanks but I wasn't the only one. There were several others that thought that the enormous accolades about Bernardini being the best we've seen in ages were slightly premature. I never disliked the horse and feel that he is immensely talented. My main point was that Invasor was being overlooked and under-rated.

Agree with everything you said here Jim.
A certain clique acted as if anyone who didn't agree that Bernadini was the best horse since Secretariat was a complete idiot and told those folks so.
I respect smack talking, and lots is in good fun. But when you talk the smack and the horse gets beat you have to offer props, thats why we post here and wage these mini battles. It ruins the fun when one side who talked the smack won't offer props to the others afterwards even when they were dead wrong.

have you no shame.....

Hooves,
I made two board bets of 20 bucks on the Juvy, yeah the rail was scraped to the nubs but the horse won by ten in an incredible performance, nothing to argue. Props to those who had street sense, and where do you want me to send the money guys, etc. What else can you say? I was wrong and they were right.
Back before GZ had stretched out I offered doubts about his 10f ability, he roasted em, and I had to give the kid props for saying all year long that he was the greatest in a long time, no doubt.

what about the fact that when they said they liked the horse you said the were morons ect...many here gave ivasor his props..i mean it wasnt that hard too see he was the top two...so why the big deal..remember blugrass cat you said he would give a gut check..not,,flower alley..he would not..so whats the big deal your no capping wizard cuz you liked the 2d choice in the betting..get real..

There was a photo of the finish of the Classic in the Lexington paper this morning with the announcement of Bernardini's retirement - don't you love a paper that sees a stallion retirement as a news event? Anyway, in the photo Bernardini has his ears back, clearly trying hard, while Invasor has his ears pricked and looks almost in hand. Invasor is simply the better horse at this point. Bernardini did not lose the race so much as Invasor actively won it.

Hooves actually I didn't single Invasor. I used Invasor, Lawyer Ron, and Bernadini in pik-3's ok? I pressed Invasor.
Bluegrass Cat broke his leg, so I think he gets a pass. And after Flower Alley's washout in the Whitney I backed off hard.
Quite frankly I think FA's BCC last year was a better effort than Bern's this year. He didn't go on at age 4, it happens but absolutely no excuses.
I ain't claiming to be no charter member of the Invasor fan club, no way no how.
I got lucky twice this year in Kentucky in using someone else's knowledge or information and incorporating it into a score. For any photos I lost or bad beats, BCC day was a makeup for that.
I lost about 5 hard beats Wednesday-Friday and was bitching about my bad luck.
After that dq in the Round Pond race Lans told me he didn't wanna hear no more about luck, and I agreed.
But I gotta take **** about CQ and ain't ducking it. I was wrong.
I also gotta take **** from Sniper(who must be a classy guy or real busy right now cause he trumped me twice and ain't busted my balls on here or in a PM yet) and give him props. His Asi prediction was real bold, and I imagine my good fortune was his bad fortune and she deserved to win or be 2nd.
I made Invasor my key in the race and told many others from this board that on the phone and in conference via cajun Gator due to some incredibly amazing good luck as well. Of all places to meet someone connected with the horse, a Jiffy Lube? I'm serious. On Monday i went to get my oil changed in preparation for the trip and heard the lady behind the counter say"Mr. Mclaughlin your car will be ready in 20 minutes". Guy is wearing a Dubai World Cup hat and has red hair, I know Kiarins brother is named neal and runs the operation up here in Toga all year for his brother but I never met the guy. So I ask him if hes Neil and he says yeah pleased to meet you. I had called kiarin the day before who I do know asking him if a cheap NY bred maiden he has who got beat in a state bred 35K is for sale for a Finger lakes client of mine, Chris Englehart.
Neil says hes getting ready to ship out of town as well and go down to the BC and hopes Kiarin sells that horse because hes shipping everything down to Belmont and they need a free stall. I asked him a few things about Invasor, like about "the fever" and how hes doing. I liked him, but didn't know about that long layoff. Tells me horse has neve, ever, trained better in his life. I liked the horse, but not as much as i did after that convo. Guy was cool as hell also, really good dude and humble like his brother. My respect for those guys went way up because I think this was one of the great training jobs in history.
I ain't claiming I loved the horse and he was a cinch, blah blah blah.
To me I always thought bern was talented(only an idiot would claim he ain't great) but that he had always had small fields with no traffic or hot pace and thought he was vulnerable if looked in the eye.
I got some good luck at, of all places, a ****ing Jiffy Lube.
I have no problem offering props where due, and admitting being wrong, or admitting being lucky like when my clocker said Barbaro was training better than any horse he had seen in his whole life before the Derby and tossing him in on top in the tri when I had doubts about his dry dirt ability.
A wise guy knows when hes been lucky, good, or both, and doesn't try to redboard that he was a genius when he in fact was not.

My respect for you just went to the moon. Apologies for any previous squirmishes.

Exactly. This is something that not many people mention. Invasor was full of run at the end of that race. I just hope he races another year. If he does I think its possible that by the end of the year he'll be the one being heralded and compared to the greats. We'll see. He brings a ton of speed and guts to the racetrack and the race does not need to set-up for him.

I just remembered the person who should get the most props regarding Invasor is our Brazilian friend FMC123412. Way back before his first NA start in May, he posted back on ESPN that this horse was a phenom down south and that we should take a good look at him. This was before the Pimlico Special. I took a look and bet him that day at 6:1 and I was impressed so I followed him ever since.

FMC, good job! Your horse has now conquered two continents.

Who knows, in March it could become three continents.

That's true FMC is a valued person on this board, always has good info...

I saw this too, Ann and I immediately thought about that topic we all had on here regarding what it meant when a horse had his/her ears pricked at the finish line. I remember many posters telling me that I was a complete moron for LIKING when a horse had their ears pricked down the stretch. :rolleyes: