Pim. Special GI
Suburban GI
Whitney GI
Breeder's Cup Classic GI

That is more than prety impressive.

Never thought that CD's beyers were out of whack. Now Delaware Park on the other hand...

Theyve been pretty bad lately Cannon

I think there are other forces at work making those Delaware numbers unreliable.

just for the sake of it, I liked Mauralakana -- so that should clear that all up so that nobody else gets accused of backing her.

Did it turn out the way I hoped? No. Did I say she was a lock? No. I just said she looked like a legit price with a chance to me. Wouldn't be the first time that someone liked a 15-1 horse and it didn't run well.

Like Henny Hughes. Oh wait, sorry, he was 8-5.

I would never feel bad about backing a horse like Mauralakana at those odds, so the comments about her are really unwarranted (though they may have been directed more to the poster you're arguing with than they are to Mauralakana in all actuality). I'll always rather watch my 15-1 shot run up the track than go down in flames with an unwarranted 8-5 favorite.

No shame here man, at least I put myself out there.

In the 30 or so years of being involved with thoroughbred racing I can't honestly recall a horse more over-hyped than Bernardini. That wasn't even a strong BC Classic field. He beat nobody in his previous starts (if you throw out the injured Barbaro, Sunriver, and Bluegrass Cat). His times were unremarkable (and so was Invasor's).

He had the Beyer hype machine behind him full bore. JC didn't move too early. He moved in the same place where Prado moved on Barbaro. Bernardini just couldn't hack it. And he had to get after Bernardini in the backstretch because Bernardini wasn't getting :48s and nearly 1:13s like he had in some of his other races. Bernardini was a fraud pure and simple.

The Travers is a weak race and has been for some time. So is the JCGC. So is the Jim Dandy. Grades don't mean a damn thing. I can name dozens of Grade I winners who could barely get 1:36 for a mile.

Jazil could beat him. And so could a healthy Bluegrass Cat. Invasor had a tough trip and ran by him under wraps. Invasor couldn't even get 2:01 flat. And that track was far from slow that day. Beyer had to hype some more figures to justify Bernardini's earlier hype figures.

Ghostzapper would have been so far gone it wouldn't have even been funny. So would St. Liam. Barbaro too.

If you buy Beyer speed figs and commentary by people like Jon White then you deserved to lose your money on BC day.

Okay, while all else are holding their breath, I'll be the first to say it.....

THIS ANALYSIS IS HORENDOUS!...Sorry man...I had to call you out for this post....Not to insult, but I had to pick myself off the ground after laughing to post this....

As did I... FUNNIEST POST ALL DAY LONG!!!

Speed figures are a complete waste of time. I could tape over the speed figures on my pps (I don't look at them anyway), bet on raw running times and be more successful than these speed figure nimrods.

You can't quantify track variants just because a maiden $25K race runs 2/5ths slower than par and then say that a stakes horse that runs 2/5ths faster than par deserves a higher speed figure because "the track was slow that day". It might have just been a bad bunch of maiden $25k horses.

On days like the BC day there is no way to judge track variant because most of the races are stakes races anyway. And you can't judge this year's races against pars from last year or even the last 10 years.

Without an accurate track variant you can't produce a speed figure. Speed figures are worthless. They always have been.

Beyer got rich off this crap. Notice how he came up with speed figs for poly at TP yet there were no pars to begin with. Think that's a flawed methodology? You bet it is. And people dumb enough to take his (or anyone else's speed figures) seriously lost their shirts betting on the poly.

Around March 15th TP scraped 3 inches off the poly to speed up the track and reduce the kickback. You think Beyer even knew about that?

Try it some time. Place a piece of tape over the speed figure column and handicap. You'll see what I mean.

If people like Beyer and some of the others worked in the financial services industry they would be in jail for fraud.

It's typical internet nonsense. You always see way too much on both ends of the extreme. He's great....no. He sucks....no.

Now don't be knocking my pal Dixie anymore. He's the glue holding this place together.

Luckily for all of us we have Latent Heat to look forward to in 2007.

Thank God a voice of reason has shown up.

Lemme guess, just finished up having drinks with Bea Arthur?

Sue Ann Nivens and Kid Dyn-O-Mite??????

I love them!

I'm heading out to Beverly Hills....stay tuned.

Will do.

Gotta run. The copter is picking me up on the roof and I'm heading out.

Beverly Hills here I come!

my god man! a statement like this has put me in the very uncomfortable situation of......(i can't believe i am doing this)........defending bernardini. as people on this board know I really don't like bernardini. i started this thread, and bcc 2006 is now my favorite race ever because the sight of invasor blowing by him as he labored home was delightful. the hype for this horse was out of control.
but that being said......JAZIL!!!!!! ummmmm no.
i guess maybe i should give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were being sarcastic or something. i love bernbashing more than anyone.....but that is just crazy.

Thanks Cardus. It seems that the people who lost money on Bernardini have nothing left but resorting to insults. I called it beforehand. They bought the hype while I bought the winning ticket.

That nearly instantaneous slowdown in a track's surface is merely an excuse used often by poor handicappers. If the track moved in any way it should have been faster later in the day. Churchill did have rain that week.

You can't base a dependent variable (speed figure) on an iffy independent variable (track variant). To put it simply, horses are not quantifiable. If they were, we'd know in advance which horse was going to win. Not even the best supercomputer crunching the best numbers (throw Trakus in there too) will ever be able to predict which horse will win with much more than 30% accuracy.

If you bet the speed figures you are a fool. Bernardini is proof positive.

Jazil versus Bernardini. That's one event that really would cause me to consider a home equity loan. Yeah, I'd throw the house in on Jazil. Particularly if it was 10f or above. Here's another one. Birdstone versus Bernardini. I'd throw my mom's house in on that one too. On Birdstone.

And I'd be laughing all the way to the bank . . . kinda like I did on November 4th.

I'm sure you were laughing all the way to the bank... you act like the horse is some kind of rat. He finished 2nd to a very nice horse. Your post last night had me laughing my ass off... thanks. Jazil and Birdstone? Give me a break!

Hey, Birdstone got 2:27 in the Belmont while chasing fast mid-race fractions. Jazil ran the Churchill 10f at close to Bernardini's time in the Classic while coming through traffic from dead last in the Derby. And also 6 months earlier.

I'm very serious. I'd take either of them versus the "wonderhorse" Bernardini.

Invasor is decent. After all, he did break 2:02 for 10f. Stunning. Triple Crown winner too. Uruguay. :)

You can actually smell and taste this dude's hatred. It's unbelievable.

I just don't get it. It's a horse he hates!:mad:

I don't hate any horses. I just want to request that in the future we use the term Bernardinians instead of Bernardini fans. I think it sounds cool.

Can't we all just admit that the reason we don't like Bernardini is because of the Preakness? I have admitted it. I admit that Bern is a good horse and probably the top three year old (Only due to Barbaro not being able to show what he is capable of.)

I think Barbaro's injury put a cloud over Bernardini that many of us can't look past.

I agree with Buffy that the Preak is half the equation. But I still don't think anyone hates the horse, hes just an innocent animal. I think the other half was since I have been following the sport I have seen some damn good horse get questioned right up to the end of their careers. I questioned Zapper's ability to go a mile and a quarter, and when he did do I was the first to say he was one of the best ,if not the best, that I ever saw.
Last year many of the same folks who were Bernadians(great line Jim, sounds almost Biblical, I suppose those who love Corinthian earlier this year were Corinthians) this year questioned and lampooned Saint Liam up to the end.
But the arrogance shown by the Bernadians was the most outrageously over the top display I have ever seen in my entire time following horses.
The way that they talked down to folks "who dared question" him was wild.
I think the animosity that developed was not over the horse himself, but against his supporters who acted that way.
Its over now, and really guys and gals, its long past time to move off the topic.

Actually, I was talking about someone else!:confused:

I know. That is why I didn't quote you. It was just a leadin to my second comment where i was trying to be humorous.

ateamstupid,
this todko's insanity is so unbelievable that it has brought the two of us together on a thread about bernardini!! i wouldn't have thought it was possible.
then he says we must be people that lost money on bern. ha!!! i was calling invasor to win it for days before the race. i even had it as my freakin' signature. i don't remember him calling anything, but then he comes on here and starts talking about jazil.....a horse that couldn't beat steppenwolfer going 10f. what a joke.
i am a big part of the anti-bern camp on this board. i ask all of you not to judge us by the uneducated rantings of this "todko" person.
by the way....i have always liked the term "bernmafia" for the crazy fans of this horse.

I don't hate any horse -- and I donate money to thoroughbred charities routinely. Not as much money as I'd like but maybe life will get better and I can do more in the future. And if Bernardini doesn't work out as a stallion and some of my donations go to save his life I'll be a very happy man. Seriously. I'd cry if he went to the slaughterhouse. It would depress me to the end.

The Preakness wasn't really an issue with me. I think it was more the racing press and how they tried to pivot off the public's interest in Barbaro and place that interest in Bernardini. It didn't work and it was a crappy sleazy move to begin with.

And really the hype was to the detriment of Bernardini. The racing press asked Bernardini to be Ghostzapper and Bernardini wasn't. It's a shame.

People on this forum were asking him to run a record at Churchill -- asking him to run 1:58. That was asking too much of Bernardini. And too much of any other horse.

The hype didn't help -- it didn't help Bernardini, it didn't help the handicappers who fell for it, it didn't help the novice bettors who fell for it, it didn't help racing, and most of all it didn't help the horse racing press. The horse racing press is still the same old fraud. Read at your own peril. And bettor beware.

Bernie was being compared routinely to an IMMORTAL, Seattle Slew, Bernie's grandfather. Even his sire A.P. Indy was not spoken of that way; yet he was a HOY and an instant Hall of Fame inductee. Bernie always had too much to live up to; it was riciculous and it started with the media, not the fans. I believe that Bernardini would have proven his greatness at four-years-old; he loses his chance because of short-sighted thinking. It hurts the sport because it alienates fans who truly love individual horses, fans like me. In Bernie I saw Slew traits, but I am not naive enough to think I saw Slew. That kind of greatness is rare indeed.

IMO, Bernardini was as talented as the Slew, and I always compared the two because they reminded me of each other.

I mean, the horse runs second in the biggest race of his life on his B game. The horse totally got knocked out of his A game when he got sandwiched going into the first turn. Every time a horse gets hit like that, it takes them out of their game. Most don't even recover enough to get back into the race, but Bernardini did. In all of Bernardini's other races, he pulled Javier up to the lead. Well, I knew he was in trouble out of the first turn because he wasn't on the bridle and pulling at Javier. When Javier started asking him at the half mile, I said "Uh-oh". So, a three year old gets beat by a four year old. The distance...a length. Even Affirmed, Secretariat, and Spectacular Bid (three greats) lost to older.

The only horse that has come along in this millenium that had more talent than this horse was the great Ghostzapper (and Dubai Millenium...RIP) (I would put possibly put Point Given, Tiznow, and Barbaro near Bernardini) and even he didn't have Bernardini's conformation and movement which is going to play a major role in the quality of his offspring. I think that Bernardini goes on to be one of the greatest sires that ever lived. If you had a quality mare, his stud fee of a hundred thousand is a steal right now.

This horse was a monster. Even if you all don't think that he is, Bernardini knew that he was great. He carried himself so much higher and prouder than any other horse on the track. He knew that he was special, and he had that air about him that all the great racehorses do. He was spectacular to look at.

Also, if he would have remained on this track in his four year old year, there is no doubt in my mind he would have earned being called great.

Personally I think it's an injustice to the Slew to compare Bernardini to him.
Frankly I don't see the similarity.

Well then that's your opinion, but I have always said that he reminded me of the Slew and he most certainly does. I believe that he was as talented as him, but of course, you couldn't actually put him in the same realm because Bernardini didn't race as a four year old and Slew accomplished much more on the track. Bernardini is going to become an outstanding sire though. As a stallion, he has it all.

Not true at all, in my case. I thought Bernardini's Preakness was outstanding. Much like Smarty's and Alex's before him. I did come to root against the horse because of the extravagance of his supporters. The comparisons should have been to Smarty and Alex, rather than annointing him horse-of-the-decade. My antipathy to him solidified when the retirement plans became clear.

The Breeder's Cup was hardly a difficult trip. Lesser horses than Bernardini have overcome much worse trips. Bernardini was exposed for what he is. A very good 3-yr-old. Probably the best 3-yr-old this year. But not a horse-for-the-ages.

--Dunbar

Don't get me wrong, I never thought he was all that and a bag of chips. Top three year old this year? Yes. THE BEST EVER? Nah. Skippy would have kicked his azz! :)

If you have watched the horse's races critically, you would have realized by the half mile in the BCC that the horse was not on his A game.