Originally Posted by Sightseek

How would you explain a horse like Saint Liam then? He only ran his best numbers if heavily pressed (not that his others sucked).

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

hey Oracle ive mellowed out as of late, I think im a new man

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

I dont like or care to hear from Ashley anymore, ive had it

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

I dont like or care to hear from Ashley anymore, ive had it

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I am not trying to refute what you said or argue with you. I have only one point to make. I was at the Travers in 2004. It started raining about twenty minutes before the Travers; my husband and I were caught in the deluge as we walked to the track. We needed a row boat to navigate. I think the race was even run several minutes early, so we could not bet! We had just gotten to the track as it was being run. I had bet Birdstone in the Belmont, so I was going to put him in some big exactas. Anyway, my only point is that track seemed very off, so Birdstone won on a pea soup track that day.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I think your memory is a little bit off. I was at the track all day that day. Yes, there was a storm but it didnt start until AFTER the race. There was no soupy track. Now, it was pretty much a monsoon after it started but the race began as the dark clouds rolled ominously in and the thunder was crackling.

Yes, it began a few minutes before schedule and they loaded QUICKLY but that was to ensure that they did run on a dry track. Im sure you can find the find replay somewhere.

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't know that I agree with that.
His Foster was freaky fast on the sheets and he "jogged" in that race.

Originally Posted by oracle80

The whip will get you a length, tops, according to the finest jockeys.
Its a fallacy that the whip can get you so many lengths.
Also, most horses run best when they are free and running how they wanna run with no pressure alongside of them.
Its a different story when another horse gets in your face and you have to quicken NOW instead of when you wanna quicken.
I can't recall too many horses who "jogged" in a big stakes race who then came back and ran better in a dogfight.
If anyone can, name them.

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Did they adjust the Beyer for his race against Zapper? I thought it was higher than 114, which tied his best two performances while having the race all to himself:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/saintliam.pdf

The Whitney was obscene. It is funny how people seem all the more ready to crown Bernardini as great and hated on Saint Liam when Bernie hasn't run a race like SL.

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Did they adjust the Beyer for his race against Zapper? I thought it was higher than 114, which tied his best two performances while having the race all to himself:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/saintliam.pdf

The Whitney was obscene. It is funny how people seem all the more ready to crown Bernardini as great and hated on Saint Liam when Bernie hasn't run a race like SL.

Originally Posted by repent

you are a freaking moron.

the Travers track was listed as "fast".
the rain came after the race that day.

but Im not even sayng The Stone hated an off track.
what I am saying is that the one time they met on a dry track, The Stone beat him.
new to the sport?
maybe, depends on perspective.
but the verification of your expertise relies on someone else, anyone else, agreeing with your opinion.
what the hell kind of sense does that make.
I oay the b*tch next door to say that Birdstone was a better horse.
that does not make it any more true or false.

and you want me to find a "credible" person to say that Birdstone was not the recipient of a "dream trip"?
what makes someone credible and what encompasses a dream trip?
does someone on this board with x amount of posts make them credible?
do they need to be a full time writer with the Daily Racing Form?
or can they be a degenerate at Manor Downs that i see when I stop by to pick up a form?


your position is full of holes and all the smarty party agreeing with you will not make it any stronger.

Birdstone got the right pace scenario he needed to be most effective on Belmont Stakes day.
so what?
it does not make his win any less valid than if smarty jones had won the race while getting an easy lead.

stop worrying about my experience within the game or my historical perspective.
they are not relevant to the argument at hand.

like I said, nothing has changed but the surrounding bullsh*t that has grown.
Ed was right on point with that one.



Repent

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Whip will get you about 1 length is very accurate I believe. I have heard some say it can get you 2 at times.

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Did they adjust the Beyer for his race against Zapper? I thought it was higher than 114, which tied his best two performances while having the race all to himself:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/saintliam.pdf

The Whitney was obscene. It is funny how people seem all the more ready to crown Bernardini as great and hated on Saint Liam when Bernie hasn't run a race like SL.

Originally Posted by philcski

Did you even WATCH the travers that day?? it was pouring rain during the race so hard they actually MOVED THE START UP 3 MINUTES, costing NYRA likely a million in handle. The track was soup. But you wouldn't know that since you play at MANOR freakin' DOWNS... is that really a racetrack?!? do they have TV's there or do they broadcast the simulcast over a shortwave radio??

Someday you'll grow up. I hope.

Originally Posted by philcski

Did you even WATCH the travers that day?? it was pouring rain during the race so hard they actually MOVED THE START UP 3 MINUTES, costing NYRA likely a million in handle. The track was soup. But you wouldn't know that since you play at MANOR freakin' DOWNS... is that really a racetrack?!? do they have TV's there or do they broadcast the simulcast over a shortwave radio??

Someday you'll grow up. I hope.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

You are missing the point--he hasnt needed to run a race like that is the point. He is so good that his less than best performance is good enough to win by open lengths.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well I don't play manor Downs and was right there. It rained 20 minutes before the race briefly, then cleared up briefly, the minute they hit the line it was indeed pouring but the track was fast with no top water for the race.
If they hand't moved up the post 3 minutes it would have been run in slop.
But the track was fast, I saw the race and watched it live, not on tv.

Originally Posted by oracle80

http://horseracing.about.com/od/late...racing+results

Note the part that says:
The rain held off until after the race. Then, the storm came with such fury that New York Racing Association officials cancelled the day's 12th and final race.



Sorry, the track was fast.

Originally Posted by philcski

I remember the rain+lightning coming DURING the race... perhaps i'm wrong (i was there but inside the grandstand)... i recall they had lights on the finish, it got so dark...

either way, my point is if anything Birdstone VALIDATED Smarty Jones and repent has to give up on his childish battle against everyone on this horse he lost, miserably, 2 years ago. Like him or not you have to respect him.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I respect Smarty Jones but at the same time I think Repent is saying that Birdstone deserves more respect than he has ever received. The truth is, Birdstone could have been an excellent rival to Smarty in my opinion. In truth, his lame performances only came on bad tracks.

As for who was closer to the crown, i am going to go against the grain and say Afleet Alex. Alex had a much easier crop and a less than ideal trip in the derby. He was much better than the rest of the junk that was in his generation. I think Alex wins that KYD if run again. I think Smarty has a tough time winning that Belmont against those horses.

Originally Posted by philcski

I guess you don't know the history with Repent and Smarty Jones...

IMO they BOTH should have won the TC. AA went into an area of the track in the Derby that was an absolute sandpit for some odd reason (i was sitting at the top of the stretch and EVERY horse that went over that section stopped badly, including Madcap Escapade which was a layup against her group). SJ was by far the best of his generation but unfortunately lost a vicious pace battle waged by two vindictive pinhead jockeys...

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think Smarty faced better and it took BOTH of those pinheads and a Travers winner to beat him.
Aa did go to a deeper path, but thats not quite the same.
I never answered the original question in this thread because I felt it was an insult to Smarty Jones to even consider that their was any question about this.

Originally Posted by philcski

I've been a self confessed SJ "goo goo" right from that cold day on the Aqu inner, so I'm with you. AA earned my respect, however...

Originally Posted by oracle80

AA has my total respect, don't misunderstand me.
But SJ's Belmont may never quite get the respect it deserves. All you have to do is take a look at the chart and see where RHT and Eddington finished and that they had dropped dead before they even made the turn.
Imagine how great SJ was to have gotten beat a length after geing hounded on both sides by two horses who stopped to a complete walk suffering the effects of the same duel? And he was still miles clear of the third horse.
Thats the bravest race I ever saw a horse run.

Originally Posted by Cardus

Tell me that you were wiping the raindrops from your eyes and that you weren't ACTUALLY crying!

I did see people around me crying at the Belmont Stakes when he finished second. Women were crying. I thought it was insane.

I understood the public's instant fascination with "Smarty" -- I wonder how many think about him now, though? -- so I didn't whoop it up when Birdstone crossed the wire first. Two others dudes and I cashed out rather well, but we didn't gloat.

Originally Posted by Cardus

Now that is a future wager! Great job!

I wasn't convinced about him through the preps because I got caught up in the pedigree angle, which now means less and less in regards to the Kentucky Derby. (It means much more in the Belmont Stakes, though.)

However, his BRISNET pace figures were clearly the best of the lot that spring. He had a great motor, and could distribute his speed more efficiently than the others.

Originally Posted by slotdirt

There was a few years there (Distorted Humor, Elusive Quality, Northern Afleet) where sprinters were siring Classic winners. Darned if that didn't throw the breeding experts into a tizzy.

Originally Posted by slotdirt

There was a few years there (Distorted Humor, Elusive Quality, Northern Afleet) where sprinters were siring Classic winners. Darned if that didn't throw the breeding experts into a tizzy.

Originally Posted by Kasept

John..

Except that they were all carrying on the outrageous success of the Raise a Native line in the race..

Originally Posted by oracle80

To put it in another perspective. Should all the kids who wanna be tennis stars in a few years not even bother to take up the game and practice and try regardless of their passion for it, athletic ability, or talent shown?
Thing is that their is a youngster out there with the greatest tennis pedigree ever. Hes by the sire Andre Agassi out a mare named Steffi Graf(By Peter Graf) and obviously with that pedigree he will win every grand slam event he enters once hes old enough to compete. Unless of course there is a kid out there who some day grows up to be more talented and athletic, or who perhaps has more heart and desire.