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paisjpq 10-03-2006 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
You know, Thoroughbred Times, I think, used to have a contest every year with first crop sires. It's broken up into three prices categories and you pick one in each section <$7,500 or so, $7,500-$20,000, $20,000+... Something like that...

I entered it one year but never got an E-mailing or anything to update the progress of the runners, etc...

Sounds like it would appeal to lots here based on this discussion...
they still have it...@least they did it for this year.

Kasept 10-03-2006 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
A.P. Indy @ 300k -sounds crazy but they sell and every mare that was in foal to him to sell at auction brings 1 mill+. If your mare fits and you have the money, I'd rather have him then Kingmambo at similar price or Dynaformer at 150.

Officer @ 15k- 1st crop has run well and should do better as they mature. Also they are popular at auctions.

Eurosilver @ 12500k- Well bred with a nice cross of speed and stamina, priced nice for commercial as well as breed to race people. May be the next Grand Slam if his 1st crop runs well.

Flatter @ 5k- Not really commercial but worth a shot at the price especially if you need speed or size for your mare.

Include @ 12500- May really take off as the 1st crop goes longer. Great mix of speed and stamina except the dam is the speed side.

Jump Start @ 10k- Just think he'll work out.

Medallist @ 8500 - They did not get a huge amount of mares (85 or so) but freakishly fast speed on speed pedigree. If the 1st crop runs early, he may get hot.

Pleasant Tap @ 10k- Solid sire for the race to run people. Most likely not going to get you a 2 year old but he produces year after year.

Three Wonders @5K- Gets nice horses that should stretch and turf also

Put it Back@ 5k- alot to like at the price but are limited to sprinting for the most part.

Bartok @ 5k -great stats with awful mares

Prime Timber @ 3500k - They seem to get to the races and run which is all you can ask for for a cheap NY bred sire.

Catineus @ 6500k - Gets lots and lots of mid range runners. Not very commercial though
Shell..

Thanks for the above.. Terrific...

Pleasant Tap is the nuts.. His get get better and better as they age.. Sound as can be...

paisjpq 10-03-2006 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostradamus
First Sam has zero chance of a full book at $40K. They will fill it at around $25K.

Albert the Great will be the best value. The price though is going up significantly from $8500. He is starting to throw some real runners.

The best values right now are Dynaformer at $150,000 and Point Given at $30,000. Breeding to cheap stallions is a waste of money.
let me guess, Lael has horses by those sires?

paisjpq 10-03-2006 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
Nobody takes a shot breeding a quality broodmare to a cheaper stallion. Who's to say you wouldn't end up with something decent? The fact is that nobody ever takes that route.
we might see next year since the dam of Henny Hughes has a yearling by Zavata

Cannon Shell 10-03-2006 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightseek
I don't think that sounds crazy at all. :)

Do you see Aptitude being decreased in price? (or deserving to be so!)

I'd put Maria's Mon on my list.
I'd think that Aptitude may stay the same. He is ok as a stallion prospect if you breed a mare with some speed or speed influences. His runners have been ok with a couple of them knocking at the door. Don't forget he was not really at his best until later in his 4 yr old year. Though with a smoother trip he may have won the Derby.

I like Maria's Mon also, very solid.

Cannon Shell 10-03-2006 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostradamus
First Sam has zero chance of a full book at $40K. They will fill it at around $25K.

Albert the Great will be the best value. The price though is going up significantly from $8500. He is starting to throw some real runners.

The best values right now are Dynaformer at $150,000 and Point Given at $30,000. Breeding to cheap stallions is a waste of money.

First Sam will be book full, no doubt

Albert the Great is far from good value unless you race at a "c" level track where most of his winners seem to be coming from. With the exception of No bizlikeshowbiz there are no good Alberts on the radar after 2 crops to run.

Dynaformer is NOT good value at 150k.

Point Given is more of a breed to race type because so many of them look so bad, even the ones that can run. Many of his first 2 crops were foal shares.

Breeding to sires like Albert the Great and hoping for the next Nobizlikeshowbiz when you are 98% sure to get a Thistledowns horse is a waste of money.

Cannon Shell 10-03-2006 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
Nobody takes a shot breeding a quality broodmare to a cheaper stallion. Who's to say you wouldn't end up with something decent? The fact is that nobody ever takes that route.
What do you consider a quality broodmare? SW, GSW, SP,GSP,?
What is a cheaper stallion? $5000, $20000, $50000?

Just asking.

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
What do you consider a quality broodmare? SW, GSW, SP,GSP,?
What is a cheaper stallion? $5000, $20000, $50000?

Just asking.
To be completely honest, I don't know enough about the breeding business to determine what makes a quality broodmare. Do you know? How much blacktype makes a mare "quality?" I doubt they would breed a mare like Ashado (for example) to a "cheap" stallion, which I would consider $5,000 or below. I've seen a ton of nice stallions for under $5,000, but the offspring just doesn't sell for a whole lot. I know that Elusive Quality was considered "cheap" before Smarty. Now he goes for $100,000. Wasn't he like $10k before Smarty? :confused:

Cannon Shell 10-03-2006 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
To be completely honest, I don't know enough about the breeding business to determine what makes a quality broodmare. Do you know? How much blacktype makes a mare "quality?" I doubt they would breed a mare like Ashado (for example) to a "cheap" stallion, which I would consider $5,000 or below. I've seen a ton of nice stallions for under $5,000, but the offspring just doesn't sell for a whole lot. I know that Elusive Quality was considered "cheap" before Smarty. Now he goes for $100,000. Wasn't he like $10k before Smarty? :confused:

He was not considered cheap by any means. I believe that he was in the 40-50k range.
Ashado would be considered to be a bit better than "quality".
Generally if a mare is a stakes winner, or graded stakes placed or has foaled a runner or runners that are the same they would be considered quality in my book.

Sightseek 10-03-2006 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
I'd think that Aptitude may stay the same. He is ok as a stallion prospect if you breed a mare with some speed or speed influences. His runners have been ok with a couple of them knocking at the door. Don't forget he was not really at his best until later in his 4 yr old year. Though with a smoother trip he may have won the Derby.

I like Maria's Mon also, very solid.
Interesting points, thanks. :)

Danzig 10-03-2006 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
Someone help he out with this because I am certainly not the most knowledgable person in the way of breeding.

Do they really think he will sell at 40k? Im sure they know but i cant understand why people would send their mares to FS at that price.

He was talented but had serious soundness issues.
first i heard that he was unsound....he did suffer an injury in the bluegrass. also, he's giant's causeways first graded winner (grade one i believe) on the dirt. one of the reasons i feel that the iron horse made the leap up to 300k--samurai proved that his old man wasn't just a turf sire.

sumitas 10-03-2006 06:12 PM
i don't think Behaving Badly and Showing Up have anything to be ashamed of in that their sires are Pioneering ($3,500) and Strategic Mission ($3,000).
Please get real and save your dumb sales pitches for the auctions.

Danzig 10-03-2006 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
A.P. Indy @ 300k -sounds crazy but they sell and every mare that was in foal to him to sell at auction brings 1 mill+. If your mare fits and you have the money, I'd rather have him then Kingmambo at similar price or Dynaformer at 150.

Officer @ 15k- 1st crop has run well and should do better as they mature. Also they are popular at auctions.

Eurosilver @ 12500k- Well bred with a nice cross of speed and stamina, priced nice for commercial as well as breed to race people. May be the next Grand Slam if his 1st crop runs well.

Flatter @ 5k- Not really commercial but worth a shot at the price especially if you need speed or size for your mare.

Include @ 12500- May really take off as the 1st crop goes longer. Great mix of speed and stamina except the dam is the speed side.

Jump Start @ 10k- Just think he'll work out.

Medallist @ 8500 - They did not get a huge amount of mares (85 or so) but freakishly fast speed on speed pedigree. If the 1st crop runs early, he may get hot.

Pleasant Tap @ 10k- Solid sire for the race to run people. Most likely not going to get you a 2 year old but he produces year after year.

Three Wonders @5K- Gets nice horses that should stretch and turf also

Put it Back@ 5k- alot to like at the price but are limited to sprinting for the most part.

Bartok @ 5k -great stats with awful mares

Prime Timber @ 3500k - They seem to get to the races and run which is all you can ask for for a cheap NY bred sire.

Catineus @ 6500k - Gets lots and lots of mid range runners. Not very commercial though
include is already doing well this year, with his first on the track--bodes well for his future since it's believed his would need more time...am hoping this guy keeps doing well, as he's (imo) broad brushes best shot at leaving a legacy.

Danzig 10-03-2006 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
To be completely honest, I don't know enough about the breeding business to determine what makes a quality broodmare. Do you know? How much blacktype makes a mare "quality?" I doubt they would breed a mare like Ashado (for example) to a "cheap" stallion, which I would consider $5,000 or below. I've seen a ton of nice stallions for under $5,000, but the offspring just doesn't sell for a whole lot. I know that Elusive Quality was considered "cheap" before Smarty. Now he goes for $100,000. Wasn't he like $10k before Smarty? :confused:
i believe elusive quality was at 60k when smarty hit the scene. he is a desired 'sprinter/miler' , in the record books..and then was the top first year sire until elusive city got dq'd for gastrogard--which moved funny cides old man to the top spot. he went to 100k after smartys derby.

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
He was not considered cheap by any means. I believe that he was in the 40-50k range.
Ashado would be considered to be a bit better than "quality".
Generally if a mare is a stakes winner, or graded stakes placed or has foaled a runner or runners that are the same they would be considered quality in my book.
"Elusive Quality, Smarty Jones' sire, has sired 13 other stakes winners from just two crops to race, a remarkable feat considering his stud career started at with a modest $10,000 stud fee his first year. The son of Gone West was the leading first-crop sire in North America for 2002, however, his top earner, Elusive City, was later disqualified from a pair of wins and when his earnings were taken out, Elusive Quality fell to third on the list. "

I knew that it was at one point $10k.

Cannon Shell 10-03-2006 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
"Elusive Quality, Smarty Jones' sire, has sired 13 other stakes winners from just two crops to race, a remarkable feat considering his stud career started at with a modest $10,000 stud fee his first year. The son of Gone West was the leading first-crop sire in North America for 2002, however, his top earner, Elusive City, was later disqualified from a pair of wins and when his earnings were taken out, Elusive Quality fell to third on the list. "

I knew that it was at one point $10k.
You are right. Waste of money those cheap sires!

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
You are right. Waste of money those cheap sires!
I don't think they are... but that could be because I don't have the $$ to spend on a sire like Storm Cat, etc. :o

There's a stud down here in Florida that I really like a lot... Mr. Livingston. :D I think he goes for $3,500 or something like that.

Swap Fliparoo 10-03-2006 09:15 PM
Mr. Livingston is a great deal. Son of El Prado? Nice looking horse as well. I think FL has some of the BEST values per $ of any state...

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swap Fliparoo
Mr. Livingston is a great deal. Son of El Prado? Nice looking horse as well. I think FL has some of the BEST values per $ of any state...
I like how "uphill" he is. Makes it physically easier for the horse to move off their rear legs.

Florida also has the only son of Sunday Silence on the east coast standing for $2,500 (although he's not a great looking horse.)

sumitas 10-03-2006 09:28 PM
exactly, look beyond the hype and you have horses as good as any, imo. the entire pedigree needs to be considered not just the shallow sales pitch of the sales. that be Austinpower.

kentuckyrosesinmay 10-03-2006 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I like how "uphill" he is. Makes it physically easier for the horse to move off their rear legs.

Florida also has the only son of Sunday Silence on the east coast standing for $2,500 (although he's not a great looking horse.)
Cajun, will you post up a picture or link to him? I know that you have shown me a picture of him before because he really is a very nice horse, but I want to look at him again.:D

kentuckyrosesinmay 10-03-2006 09:31 PM
Also, I think that First Samuri is going to be a wonderful sire who will appeal to many breeders for reasons that have already been stated throughout this thread. I know that if I were a breeder, I would give him some serious consideration. I'm also attracted to Orientate...

These are two lesser priced stallions (compared to Dynaformer, Storm Cat, AP Indy, etc.) who I think are going to make a serious impact on the racing industry.

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Cajun, will you post up a picture or link to him? I know that you have shown me a picture of him before because he really is a very nice horse, but I want to look at him again.:D

sumitas 10-03-2006 09:46 PM
you got the right horse cajun ?

this is Austinpower
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd...inpowerjpn.jpg

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitas
you got the right horse cajun ?

this is Austinpower
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd...inpowerjpn.jpg
She was asking about Mr. Livingston... I talk about him all the time. LOL... I think people get sick of me talking about him. :o

kentuckyrosesinmay 10-03-2006 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
Oh yes, he is really, really nice. He has a beautiful back and hip/croup on him. Beautifully balanced horse. I smile every time I see these guys built this good.:)

kentuckyrosesinmay 10-03-2006 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
She was asking about Mr. Livingston... I talk about him all the time. LOL... I think people get sick of me talking about him. :o
I don't get sick of you talking about him. He's wonderful:D Well, at least in the conformation and pedigree department.

Swap Fliparoo 10-03-2006 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I like how "uphill" he is. Makes it physically easier for the horse to move off their rear legs.

Florida also has the only son of Sunday Silence on the east coast standing for $2,500 (although he's not a great looking horse.)
Ha ha... an "uphill" horse is a definite beauty mark in my book too :o Must be all the dressage shows i've seen :D But it would seem to help with racing and staying balanced, too...

S.S. is going to be an absolute BANG-UP sire of sires... i believe 3 or 4 of the top 5 Japanese studs are by him, if I'm not mistaken.

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swap Fliparoo
Ha ha... an "uphill" horse is a definite beauty mark in my book too :o Must be all the dressage shows i've seen :D But it would seem to help with racing and staying balanced, too...

S.S. is going to be an absolute BANG-UP sire of sires... i believe 3 or 4 of the top 5 Japanese studs are by him, if I'm not mistaken.
I think you're right. It's a shame he didn't stay here at stud.

Swap Fliparoo 10-03-2006 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I think you're right. It's a shame he didn't stay here at stud.
I always wonder if he would have had the same success... for some reason his progeny seem best suited to the turf... even tho he was brilliant on dirt. But maybe he'll be the next Mr. P, with sons wowing the world, no matter how they performed on the track... or not, who knows how they'll go over in the U.S. Predicting sire success is the hardest thing ever ;)

jpops757 10-03-2006 10:08 PM
Does anyone know if the full sybling to either Alex or Smarty has sold this year or not I think he or she will be 2 next year.

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpops757
Does anyone know if the full sybling to either Alex or Smarty has sold this year or not I think he or she will be 2 next year.
Smarty's full yearling sister is in Ireland (or so I read at some point.) Besides Unforgettable Max, Alex doesn't have another full sibling.

paisjpq 10-03-2006 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by merasmag
how did he break his rib...of course he would run badly because of it...how did they not know he had a broken rib b4 the race (did he do it in the middle of the night when noone was looking?)...to avoid another immediate post, what is this godolphin boycott i've seen a few references to?
the assumption is that he hit the gate on his way out and broke it at the start.

Swap Fliparoo 10-03-2006 10:14 PM
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd...nday%20silence

sons of S.S. standing in the USA... ignore the $15,000 colorado stallion, they only breed him to about two home mares... seen the ads for the new one coming to Adena - looks promising. Wonder what the fee will be.

kentuckyrosesinmay 10-03-2006 10:15 PM
There was a yearling by Northern Afleet that sold for a pretty penny at the last Keeneland sale. Or I think it was the last Keeneland sale? I need to keep track of the young horses that I like better:o Anyway, this particular colt was the spitting image of Alex. I bet that Alex was built just like this colt when he was a yearling. I really liked him.

Cajungator26 10-03-2006 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swap Fliparoo
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd...nday%20silence

sons of S.S. standing in the USA... ignore the $15,000 colorado stallion, they only breed him to about two home mares... seen the ads for the new one coming to Adena - looks promising. Wonder what the fee will be.
Yeah, I'm dying to know myself...

It appears that he's working at Santa Anita still. He looks nice!

Danzig2 10-04-2006 05:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by merasmag
how did he break his rib...of course he would run badly because of it...how did they not know he had a broken rib b4 the race (did he do it in the middle of the night when noone was looking?)...to avoid another immediate post, what is this godolphin boycott i've seen a few references to?
first samurai was fractious in the gate at the bluegrass.

the godolphin boycott....godolphin is tee'd off at coolmore, won't touch their stuff at auction, and outbids them on a regular basis at the sales. why? because they can!

Danzig2 10-04-2006 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungator26
"Elusive Quality, Smarty Jones' sire, has sired 13 other stakes winners from just two crops to race, a remarkable feat considering his stud career started at with a modest $10,000 stud fee his first year. The son of Gone West was the leading first-crop sire in North America for 2002, however, his top earner, Elusive City, was later disqualified from a pair of wins and when his earnings were taken out, Elusive Quality fell to third on the list. "

I knew that it was at one point $10k.
right, but the year that smarty turned three, EQ was already at 50-60k due to his earlier successes.
also, don't forget that storm cat started at 25k and then dropped from that, before hitting the big time. he's been at half a mill so long...seems like no big deal anymore!
the one i thought was CRAZY was ghostzapper starting at 200k. unheard of, and ridiculous IMO. of course not as ridiculous as actually getting it!


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