Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

Are you rating your esteem of Black Caviar on one race?

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.

Who was better?

He will tell you Phone Trick.

Nevermind the fact that they met on the track.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/21/sp...s-victory.html

Dude, I was there.

Phone Trick was great as well.

I wasn't

Were you even born yet.

Chinook Pass

Midnight Lute

Yes.

As a matter of fact -- at birth, I wasn't delivered in a traditional manner -- rather, I JUMPED out of the womb, on my way to doing a 360 up in the doctor's face, and in doing so, I impressed the nurse* to no end with my smoooove game, making it a simple matter to get those panties off, and drop the hammer with my erect since day one instrument of female bliss.

From that moment on, I knew I was destined for Internet greatness.

* - OK...so she was a little chunky. I was young, cut me some fucl<ing slack

Very doubtful. He was 0-for-3 lifetime in Graded Stakes races and got caught at Los Al in his California debut.

Maybe the fastest horse for a quarter mile or half mile of all-time -- but he does not belong in the discussion of all-time top dirt sprinters IMO.

Laffit Pincay told me he was not only the best sprinter he ever rode, but one of the best horses period.

I think he very much does belong in that discussion.

Pincay Jr. is a jockey. Chinook Pass never won a Graded Stakes race. He was just 1-for-5 lifetime beyond 6.5 furlongs. He was a run-off speed horse.

Here is the lifetime record of Chinook Pass when he had a lead of 1.5 lengths or less at the 1st call.

June 27th 1981: Washington Bred maiden race at Long Acres. Chinook Pass leads by 1.5 lengths at 1st call. Wins by 2 lengths.

Aug 30th 1981: Gottstein Futurity for Washington Breds at Long Acres: Chinook Pass led by only a half length at the 1st call -- he finished 11th beaten 17 lengths.

April 10th 1982: $3,000 Allowance race at Portland Meadows. Chinook Pass led by only 1 length after the 1st call. He won the race by one length.

July 5th 1982: Seattle Slew handicap at Long Acres. Chinook Pass led by just a head at the 1st call. He finished last of 14 and was eased in the stretch.

Aug 22nd 1982: Long Acres Mile. Chinook Pass leads by just a half length at the 1st call. Finishes 2nd.

Nov 14th 1982: National Sprint Challenge Division 2: Chinook Pass had a poor start and didn't make the lead. Finished 3rd.

Jan 2nd 1983: Malibu Stakes at Santa Anita. Chinook Pass leads by 1.5 lengths at the 1st call. Finishes 6th beaten 16 lengths.

Mar 13th 1983: Phoenix Gold Cup at Turf Paradise: Chinook Pass is only in front by a head at the 1st call. Finishes 5th at odds of 2/5.

Just a record of 8-2-1-0. One of the two wins came in a Washington Bred maiden race. The other came in a $3,000 allowance race at Portland Meadows.

He was clearly in the class of Groovy and Phone Trick.

Gary Stevens was the worst at that. He had a new 'best horse I ever rode' every season.

Kent Desormeaux is pretty close as well. He was on a lot of good horses including Formal Gold in his prime -- and after the Preakness he called Big Brown the best he ever rode.

Mike Smith called Zenyatta the best he ever rode -- and that included Skip Away, Cigar, and Holy Bull among others.

Can anyone imagine Affirmed getting beat by 7 or more lengths at Long Acres on 3 different occasions? Or how about Affirmed getting caught late at Los Alimotis. Or, how about Affirmed finishing 5th at Turf Paradise.

I don't fault anyone for thinking Chinook Pass was one of the fastest horses ever for a half mile or so and he was definitely a great performer on a few occasions -- but he was a runoff and had a lot of bad races on his form.

I have no idea who the greatest sprinter ever was. Dr. Fager was pretty amazing sprinting. There are a lot of great sprinters throughout history starting with Roseben and ending with horses like Kona Gold and Midnight Lute.

He may not have been the best. But my all time favorite sprinter is Dancing In Silks:tro:

Hey. Here's something that might be fun. The interview I did with Pincay was in 2003 for a radio piece I did for his 50th birthday.

In that conversation he spoke of the 4 or 5 greatest horses he ever rode. Can you guess who they were? One caught me completely off guard.

Added note: Laffit is going to be a guest this year at the Handicapping Seminar at the Sonoma County Fair in Santa Rosa. He'll be appearing alongside Russell Baze on Sat. July 28. Over 21,000 wins sitting on one stage in Wine Country. The show is hosted by Frank Miramahdi and Michael Patricks. Pretty cool huh?

What about Lost in the fog or Caller One

Phone Trick, as Salami will no doubt say I am going to say. PT lost because of the instructions Mandella gave Pincay and he's blamed himself ever since.

Groovy, on a loose lead, was damn tough, but he was not the most consistent or gamest horse ever.

On the Line, once Lukas figured him out, was awesome. Lit De Justice ran races that could take your breath away.

I'd say those three, on their best days, would beat Groovy on his best day.

One could make cases for horses like Kona Gold, Chinook Pass, maybe Reraise (who knows how good he may have been?).

Phone Trick though? Wow.

You speak in ignorance with this one. The graded stakes race thing is meaningless. Racing was different back then (the way stakes were structured) and quite a few of those listed stakes are now graded. It's too bad you've never seen video of him run.

Especially as a four year old.

Anyone who ever saw that horse run when he was older knew they were watching greatness.

I'd like to have seen Ack Ack run. Were you ever so lucky to see him race?

Pincay was not a braggart. If he said something, he meant it. I never saw or heard him get into hype.

I'd guess Sham would be on there. I loved Tight Spot, though I doubt he'd say he's top 5.

Chinook Pass too, I suppose. Who else?

We have a first ballot winner:tro: The one that floored me was Sham. Just another testament to how great Big Red was.

Others he mentioned were Affirmed and Grienton.

Well done Charles.

Calling Chinook Pass an all-time sprinter is a greater reach than saying that Gun Bow is the single greatest race horse of all-time.

Gun Bow was a run off who could sprint 10 furlongs -- and when the track was kind to his style and he got the loose lead -- he was literally the single fastest horse in thoroughbred history that I know of. He would obliterate great fields of champion horses. True legends like Kelso and Native Diver would be completely blown off of the track and other excellent horses would be buried.

Chinook Pass an all-time great sprinter even though he got beat at Los Al, got drubbed 3 times at Long Acres, and got wasted at Turf Paradise? Ok, by that logic, Gun Bow is the best race horse to ever live.

Not claiming that he was a "all-time great," but Kelly Kip was a very cool horse and very fast on his best day. I believe that he set either five or six track records in NY during his career; he still holds the following track records: 5F at Belmont Park (55.3 while debuting for maiden $35,000); 6F at Aqueduct (1:07.2, breaking his prior mark of 1:07.3); and 6F at Finger Lakes (1:08.1).

not the best ever.. but some of those races Artax ran were wicked fast.

unbridled's song won the 7 furlong Olympic handicap at age 4 - 1:21 and change... his only stakes race for trainer Nick Zito. That one race put him to the top of the list of the best horses Zito has trained.

I'll throw an old-timer out there who was pretty quick in his day.......Bold Ego. I believe he and Top Avenger still hold the record for the fastest Derby quarter and half mile splits. Would have been interesting to see if he had just been kept sprinting how good he could have been.

Gulch was a monster sprinter, just didn't do it very often.

Pine Tree Lane?

Did you mean Very Subtle?

I don't remember PTL ever facing Groovy and beating him.

She finished ahead of him, I think, in the 1986 BC at SA.

Jorge Velasquez rode Phone Trick in NY.

Groovy won 10 of 15 starts when he began sprinting in earnest. One of those defeats was in the Jerome going 8f. He beat the older Phone Trick as a 3yo before he was well-established.

On The Line was running in route races all the way to the end of his career. For good reason, he did well in many of them.

That horse could barely win 2 races in a row. Great turn of foot when he actually used it.

Another "not the best" sprinter but one whose name deserves mention is Precisionist, the fifth - and last I believe - horse to sweep the Strub Series at Santa Anita. And he wasn't limited to sprinting, either. Six furlongs in 1:08 2/5. A mile in 1:32 4/5. Ten furlongs in 2:00 1/5. Turf, dirt, slop, he ran in them all.

Groovy was a great New York based sprinter. I believe his forte back then was his second quarter. Thats where he would win his races. The way to beat Groovy was to get in front of him early, which never happened in NY. But when he came west for the 86-87 Breeders Cup races he ran into two extremely fast fillies who ran him off his feet in the first 1/4 of the race. I do realize he won the Ancient Title in his prep for the 86 BC, so he did show he can win on the west coast.
Chinook Pass was a favorite of mine. But like the mighty Lord pointed out, he was far from consistent. His best race by far was the 83 Bing Crosby at Del Mar. A friend of mine who did beyer numbers before they were published has that race as his highest rating of any sprint back in the day. I believe he gave him a 128 that day.
Phone Trick was a beast. Unfortunately he injured himself in the Groovy race and was retired.

My bad on the jockey in NY. It was like 27 years ago and my take on jockeys are that they are mostly useless.

Everyone knew Groovy was a sprinter. Maybe you meant dedicated sprinter. He beat Phone Trick because Mandella thought it best to concede the lead to Groovy. Groovy didn't fare well when hooked by a quality speed horse, or worse, if he was forced to chase a quality speed horse.

On the Line was a sprinter by the end of his career. There is no doubt about that.

And yeah, Lit de Justice was a freaking nut case. When he fired, he was just about unbeatable (provided Nak didn't give him too awful a ride/trip).

I'm not saying Groovy wasn't a great sprinter. I just feel that there are a number of sprinters, that if all were on their best that day, would beat him.

On The Line's last 3 starts before his ill-fated BC Sprint were at a mile or more.

True, but Lukas was a freaking idiot. On The Line was clearly a better sprinter, he just happened to be a pretty good versatile runner.

If you like, I'll post On The Line's lifetime PPs.

I was being semi facetious, but I thought she was a really fast horse mare or not. If Angel had closed the rail, she would have won the 1986 Sprint.

And in 1987 she outsprinted Groovy from the gate. In fairness, Groovy broke from the rail and Very Subtle had a nice clear run from post 9.

I think if you look at Pine Tree Lane's Bold Ruler and Carter, they were pretty fast races. Unfortunately she ran down badly in the Genuine Risk and really was never the same again.