Unions are an example of individual freedom?

Not in the real world

No. The right to unionize is a freedom. Being taken away by some.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of unions.

And for public employees it should be taken away. Public servant unions are nothing but political bodies. This wasn't the intent of allowing workers to be protected. There are a myriad of rules and laws that already protect these workers.

I have no problem with public employees being unionized. It helps protect them from patronage, for example.

It's funny, my entire life both political parties praised teachers, talking about how they are the epitome of dedication to this country, how they are never paid enough for the tough and important job they do ... and this election season the Republicans are demonizing them. Sad. Well, I guess somebody has to pay for the GOP tax cuts to businesses, and demonizing unions is at the top of this election season's RGA playbook.

lol

No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

I have no issues with teachers and there is no question that they are a vital cog in our society but seriously the more cash we pour into the education system, the worse the results are. How anyone of any political affiliation can't see this and cant see what the bureaucratic mess created by the teachers unions has done is blind.

And anyone who can't appreciate how teachers unions have kept people in teaching, classrooms a manageable size, etc. isn't looking very hard.

Good and bad to teachers unions, but remember that they don't dictate or bargain alone. Have to hold the other signers of the contracts equally responsible if something bad is there.

Just reading those newly-created Republican words off the playsheet? :D

If tax cuts help "job creators", 2000-2008 would have been a huge economic boom. It was a disaster. As the tax cuts during Reagan were.

Facts have a liberal bias.

teachers unions pushed smaller class size, saying that would help...all that did was put more dues into the union, it certainly didn't change test scores.
unions are a business, and of course their number one concern is making money.

Your version of facts is funny as you take a single point and twist whatever argument you want out of it.

Are we now denying that businesses create jobs? Or tax increases help create jobs (non government version)?

Lets not kid ourselves into why teachers unions heavily favor Democrats, the simple selling off of our education system for votes.

And acting as if Democrats and unions have real negotiations is laughable. Sadly GOP pols have gotten brow beaten for years into concessions for teachers unions. You know the mock outrage "the poor kids!" bs.

The idea that teachers unions are trying to make the education of children a priority is a sad joke as many districts are forced to cut program for the students to ensure that they can pay for lavish benefits negotiated by unions. Such as in NY a public school teacher only has to work 120 of 160 days. What other job do you work 10 months of the year, no weekends and get paid full time to work 75% of the schedule? If a student took as many days off as teachers are allowed they would be considered a truant.

yeah right :rolleyes:

I'm going to start refering to Obama as that black guy in office. I mean he is black, and he is in office, so there's nothing wrong with that.

Unions are a racket. Teachers union is the worst of the lot. I grew up in NJ, if you knew what it is really like there now, "a great school system"(a system that is reliant on it's history from the 70's and 80's) is all I hear from my friends with kids as to why they are still living there. It is nonsense, I have friends and family that are teachers in NJ, good teachers who would do anything to get out of the union that rewards mediocrity the same way it does excellence. Sadly this seems to be the curriculum these days too so I guess it makes sense.

That is a recipe for success, right?

"Mo' money, mo' problems" right Newark?

this is shocking to me. I grew up the child of teachers and they never were close to being allowed to take 40 personal days in a year. That simply didn't exist as an option and teacher unions existed in Ohio. They received no lavish benefits ever. My father did eventually go into administration which I guess is an evil unto itself which I am unaware of too much. In those positions he worked 12 months a year non-stop with very little vacation at all. He did have the luxury of dying quite young, so unfortunately didn't get to reap the benefits of all those other "lavish benefits" of which you speak and I as a child of public educators have no clue as to what you are talking about. I am glad to know that my parents are part of a group largely responsible for the decline of America. I take pride in that.

There are usually two sides to every story. For all the evils unions do, there is the opposite side that they have done some good too. Still. Tenure keeps just as many great teachers going as pathetic ones, and getting rid of it would have just as many great teachers getting fired for no good reason as pathetic ones getting fired for good reason.

I should have read this post first!! :)

Where is the happy medium?? You can't put ZERO money into the education system can you?? What public schools are expected to do is unfathomable. They must take every single child no questions asked which charter/private schools don't have to do. It's nearly impossible to get perfect public schools. If you look at some of the kids in the system, it's a tough task. Yes, it can get better, but using standardized test as the only measure of success as is currently being done, it makes it very, very tough.

I guess they should have moved to NY

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

One of the big problems with teachers unions like ACT and NEA is they derive clout from delivering their members votes and from the massive amounts of money they collect in dues. They block reform which obviously is much needed. The NEA employs more political organizers than the Democratic and Republican parties combined. Yeah they are interested in the kids.

In NYC in 2006-2007 there were 10 teachers fired out of over 55000 tenured. The average cost to fire an tenured teacher in NY is in excess of $128,000 due to the legal challenges from the teachers unions regardless of the much the teacher in question deserved to lose their job.

In Chicago where only 28.5% of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on state standardized tests less than .01% of teachers between 2005 and 2008 were fired for poor performance.

In NYC the city spends more than $100 million a year paying teachers that arent currently teaching. The union contract requires that any teacher with tenure be paid their full salary and benefits if they are sent to the “Absent Teacher Reserve pool. The average pay of a teacher in that pool? $82,000 a year. Some of the teachers have been in the pool since 2006.

In a 2007 report, the nonprofit Education Sector found that nearly 19 percent of all public education spending in America goes towards things like seniority-based pay increases and outsized benefits. If these provisions were done away with, the report found, $77 billion in education money would be freed up for initiatives that could actually improve learning, like paying high-performing teachers more money.

Absent Teachers Reserve Pool....is that like those rooms set up for the Autoworkers?:eek:

LOL - My only "point" is that your blatant blaming of unions for everything bad doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It's just the current Republican political fad, so they have someone to blame (you know, teachers, firemen and policemen have ruined this country, right?) so they can have someone pay for financing more of their tax cuts to business.

For example, in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker said the unions needed to make sacrifices to help balance the budget. The unions immediately agreed to those sacrifices. The unions proactively helped balance the budget.

Walker busted the unions anyway. It's all about creating false blame and hate. Not reality.

Again, I think you need to go read the definitions of the two words you used. Because you, above, are still using them incorrectly.

Unions have always been SO willing to sacrifice for the common good. You arent running for political office so why not acknowledge that there is a massive difference between the individuals that belong to a union (most of the time have no choice in the matter) and the union itself.

Again acting as if unions havent abused their position and become something that they weren't intended to when created is myopic or just wrong.

I used them exactly the same as you did. I am only talking about one specific person. That hip-hop listening, basketball playin' black man in office.

yeah, my mom is a teacher, and she has good health insurance. but she surely never takes 40 days off of work :zz: maybe 4 total, but not 40. sure she has good insurance, but she deserves every dime she gets, in salary and benefits.

Anti you are wrong you should have said "the incompetent black guy in office" then you would be correct.


:p

You should learn the other side to the Prosser story. I guess like Kloppenburg you are quick to judge without knowing the facts. If you read something other than a liberal paper you may actually get the story right. When all the facts come out it may be justice Ann Bradley or Abrahamson who could be under judicial review.

You think your last sentence is racist? Again, you'd better go read the definition ;)

Or this may be easier: Faux News ridiculously accused Jon Stewart of being racist because he mocked Herman Cain. Watch the second part of this episode starting at about minute 9.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-epi...011-louis-c-k-

Yeah! He was defending himself against her attack, and her neck ran into his hands! :D

I didn't realize you were there and actually saw this happen. I just thought you read about it in the Capital times or Huffington. I did not realize that you knew all the facts surrounding this and what actually transpired. My mistake.

No. I was reading Prosser's side of the story. The statement he made Sunday?

Do you not read your local news sources?

Do you not learn all the facts before making judgment? Do you understand what was going on in that meeting and how things were handled by both Bradley and Abrahamson? Do you know if Justice Ann Bradley attacked Justice Prosser?

Keep reading because the truth will come out. First Prosser will not be charged, second Justice Ann Bradley may need to resign for her actions, and finally the actions by both Bradley and Abrahamson and their handling of the decision and dissenting opinon proved how much they are in the pockets of the unions and not concerned with the actual laws of the state.

maybe not necessarily racist, but I do think it's inappropriate.

You tell her wiphan! Seriously if he really choked her why didn't she press charges immediately. I love obama today saying he might threaten congress to stay in session over the weekend. Then he says hes been in washington the whole time. Correct me mr. president but weren't you in ireland having a beer at a pub. Really working hard. lol

Sure :D

So I guess you missed the part where she did initiate an investigation immediately?

Would you like to wager on whether or not Prosser is charged? Even in liberal Dane County?

I will give you 4-1 odds that he is not charged.

You mean like you wanted to wager that Democrats would be recalled before Republicans? Yet the GOP were only able to barely get enough recall signatures on only half the Dems eligible, while the Dems were able to get vastly excessive recall signatures on all the eligible GOP quickly?

And the GOP are desperately putting in Republicans to run as fake Dems to try and force runoffs, to keep themselves in office for another 4 weeks?

But the GOP couldn't mount a challenger with enough signatures for one of the very first elections, thus which will not be a primary. I predict the Dem will win and hold their seat.

There are currently two investigations against Prosser (and none against the two other judges you mentioned).

I don't know if Prosser will be charged by the police with assault of a judge (a felony), simple battery, etc. Or if he will be found in ethical violation and forced to resign.

I would be very happy if he resigned. I don't need to see him have jail time. He clearly does not have the temperment necessary to be a judge (heck, he doesn't even seem to have basic workplace manners), aside from his outrageous public judicial activism. His history of anger and cursing out his fellow judges showed that.

No like I wanted to wager that Prosser would hold up in the recount by a minimum of 5000 votes. I actually never presented a wager on the recall of dems vs republicans, but I did present you a wager for the prosser vs kloppenberg recall. Interesting to me that you are all for someone resigning their position and you know zero facts. All you know is what you read in a liberal newspaper or online blog. You have no clue how Justice Bradley handled herself and what actions she took that led up to the incident. You will soon learn those facts...

If I am wrong why don't you take my $? I am giving you 4-1 odds.

LOL. What nonsense. The Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism broke the story, but the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Wisconsin State Journal, The Associated Press, Reuters, other national press - all are covering the story.

Prosser has publicly admitted calling the Chief Justice "a bitch" and threatening to "destroy" her. Prosser has publicly admitted that his place on the bench will be to "help advance Gov. Walkers' agenda."

The above - which Prosser himself admits to - is enough to keep the guy off the bench in my eyes.

I guess you like nasty, cursing, unprofessional activist judges. Good luck with that. Keep trying to defend this loser.

Because you don't know zero facts from reading right wing blogs? You know that it was Justice Bradley that threw her neck into Prosser's hands :D

Unfortunately, as we see with Clarence Thomas, it is very difficult to get a judge off a bench. If Prosser won't go via ethics, may have to be forced out with legal charges.

Put your $ where your mouth is please

No thanks. I have no interest in gambling on this disaster. I already said I don't know if Prosser will be charged outside of the judicial ethics investigation. You go right ahead.

I guess you really don't believe what you write.....

Talent would prevent that. Why would anyone fire an excellent employee that makes their lives easier and school look better?
I get to keep my job because I do it very well and nobody needs to babysit me, my work gets done and I produce numbers. Not because I have worked here for three years.
No district is going to fire "great teachers" for no reason. The teachers themselves would be a in a much better position. The good ones anyway.

The above statement cannot be argued in any way. Replace the word teacher in this debate with any other profession and see how ridiculous it sounds.