This was back in the '60s or '70s, when teachers TAUGHT the and the students LEARNED, not the 21st century, where teachers don't teach SH#T!!

The Republicans far outweigh the Democrats in corporate election sponsorship. Out of the top ten corporate political contributors in 2008 - 2010, 7 are Republican, and 3 were Democratic. Those 3 were unions.

And most realize that with the Citizens United ruling passing, it's only corporate campaign spending that matters now.

Maybe your contributions would be less "pointless" if you'd address what I actually wrote, rather than going off targeting your imaginary straw men :tro:

[quote]Don't forget the current Republican house stated they want to try and recall those government regulations regarding, "workplace safety, hours, overtime, etc" laws. FDA, OSHA, EPA - all under current GOP attack to eliminate funding and decrease regulation.

Ezra Kline, Washington Post, has as a third good article on Wisconsin. Please read his analysis of Wisconsin's "budget crisis" (not uninfluenced by Walker just giving $140 million in unfunded tax cuts to corporations, adding that amount to the deficit)

Here's what Klein found regarding public sector pay in Wisconsin, compared to private sector play in Wisconsin (read the article for the details) Notice it is "total" compensation package, including pension, benefits, etc:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...and_local.html

Sorry, no. Those taxpayer dollars become private dollars the moment they are in the paycheck. Your argument is that you have a right to determine how government workers spend their pay. That is beyond absurd. If people want to pay union dues with their own money, it's their Constitutional freedom and right to do so.
"Upset"? LOL - that's a strange word for you use. No, I simply stated why he did it - political payback.

"The claim" is in Walkers campaign finance reporting. You seem fine with stealing from the homeless. Oh, wait. You never expressed an opinion about that. But I guess your failure to express an opinion on that means you seem fine with that. Dell - I'm not going to address your silly, crazy, created fantasy segues.

I guess the Democrats better be a little more business friendly

Actually my post was directly on point

Your biases are so severe that you refuse to even acknowledge that you may be biased. You seeminglycontinue to think that you are some centrist and think that anyone who disagrees with you is a right wing zealot. However the reality is that you are the extremist and your continued consistently far left, Huffington Post/Daily Kos/msnbc fueled diatribes ignore the fact that in most cases there is a whole lot more grey than black and white.

No, it was silly and off base. I never said the Democrats were remotely "altruistic", nor that they wouldn't benefit by supporting unions. Those were your words. Not mine. Go attack yourself, rather than me. I didn't say what you're attacking me for.

That's alot of going off yapping on your part. Who's the one demonstrating severe biases? Feel better now, dumping on me rather than talking about unions? :D This is why debating topics with you is so pointless. You can't offer much other than snarky personal attack. And bumper sticker political opinion, that blandly dismisses anything you don't like to hear or you don't agree with.

How about a little analysis on the non-necessity of unions in the 21st century, if that's your view? A little support for Walker's actions?

there's no way riot's a centrist. surely she doesn't believe she is, since she acknowledges that she's predominantly anti-republ these days...
at any rate, our state and fed govts are supposed to be set up a certain way for a reason. i don't agree with those dems simply leaving town rather than do their job and vote. what ever happened to the spirit of compromise in our govts?

Yes, I do indeed acknowledge - and have said here - I'm fed up with the Republican Party in it's current form. I've never made any claim to being centrist in the last year. That's laughable.

It wasn't offered. Walker came in with this a week ago Friday, with a bill that undid 50 years of collective bargaining - poof, gone - with no public comment allowed, no compromise sought, and only limited floor debate allowed.

I don't blame the Dems for using procedural tactics to block the rush to ramrod this bill through. Other state legislatures have used the same "leave state" tactics in the past (Texas, Oklahoma) I don't like it, but compared to what Walker is doing ramming this bill through and refusing all compromise, and all public comment, it's what they feel right about doing.

The teachers' union, several days ago, said they would agree with all Walker's demands regarding pension and increasing their contribution. That leaves taking away collective bargaining rights. Walker refused that offer.

So we know clearly what Walker is about. It's not deficit reduction.

Riot - it's laughable that you expect Republicans to compromise after they win an election but your hero Zero can ram healthcare down our throats because he won an election.

Walker should replace the WI 14 and fire all the "sick" teachers immediately. Revoke the licenses of the "doctors" that handed out fake excuses.
Call out the national guard and shoot the hippies


btw


Illinois is corrupt

Hardly the same thing. And by the way, the majority of Americans currently support the PPACA or want it strengthened.

Healthcare had whole committees devoted to it for months, and tons of public and floor debate time in both houses. Plenty of opportunity for amendments and comments. Obama ran on instituting healthcare reform.

This issue doesn't have that. I can't find where Walker ran on eliminating unions (maybe he did, but can't find it). And he brought this bill up out of nowhere, last Friday, with no public comment and limited floor debate, no amendments.

Hardly comparable.

Walker cannot replace "the 14" that I can see - people have been trying to come up with reasons but nobody has any legally valid ones yet that I've seen.

He can fire all the teachers he wants, and get sued if they did present a note from a doctor as required. He's already said he thinks he can use the national guard to replace teachers. Good luck with that one, Walker :zz:

I'll leave it to you to shoot hippies if that's what you want. That was pretty ugly in reality at Kent State. Sorry to see you think that's a jokable item. Dangerous if you are serious.

i'm blaming everyone in that state for the current problems. it's why i asked about compromise. the gov is trying to force feed his stuff, the dems fled the scene. it's a big mess

The majority of the State, a large one, voted Scott Walker into office to do just what he is doing. The State of WI is largely rural, farms and small towns that resent the fact the vast majority of tax dollars are not so much going to unions but to support services provided to Milwaukee and to a lesser extent Madison.

Milwaukee has been famous in recent years for building empty schools as the population has dropped while producing some of the lowest HS test scores in the nation. The teachers' union was simply a logical first target.

Surprised after all the lectures handed out by dems regarding vitriolic rhetoric they would come up with KILL the bill as their chant. :D

I agree it's a mess. The Dems have advised Walker they would return if he would allow discussion and compromise. Walker has refused and said the bill stands exactly as it is. The union has said they would agree to all his proposals regarding pension/healthcare if he removed taking away their collective bargaining rights. Walker has refused. I have no idea how this will end.

Edit: Wisconsin Law Enforcement Association, who endorsed Walker, today issues an apology and retraction of that endorsement on their website: http://www.wlea.org/

That's an outrageous claim. Where do you get your misinformation? 99.9% of working Americans want it repealed.
He ran on many things and if you want to hold him to that why not transparency or the reading of bills.
Is he eliminating the unions? I think the unions are doing that. Walker is a natural born US citizen where 0 ... not so much.

see post #29 of this thread

There is video of doctors handing out notes and those so-called doctors need to be arrested or have their license revoked - whatever is easiest.
The police are not here to create disorder, they're here to preserve disorder.
Richard J. Daley

Gallup. ABC/WashingtonPost. Where in the world do you get that "99.9% of working American's want it [the PPACA] repealed"? Do you have any polls at all on that?

:zz: Walker is the one whose law wants to take away collective bargaining rights. Not the unions.

And if you think the President of the United States isn't a United States citizen, you've just bought into the conspiracy theories. That's simply false.

There's nothing there that says Walker can replace elected officials he doesn't like or who don't show up for a vote. I haven't read about anybody trying to recall them. There's already recalls being collected on the GOP who have been there over a year. I'd think the GOP would try to do that to the Democrats if they wanted them out.

Why? What the doctors are doing isn't illegal at all. You can't have people whose politics you don't like arrested. Or shot.

Tail-gunner Joe was right
 

if it isn't illegal it should be
it is dishonest

Do you deny that it is dishonest?

A good personnel department can solution any disputes fairly and quickly. There are a myriad of laws in place now. The public unions protect the incompetent and abusers. How many times are people out on leave forever with pay while nothing is resolved ? The public unions only serve themselves at taxpayer expense.

All Politics Are Local
 

The Koch brothers (the third-richest Americans, David and Charles Koch) started and fund one of the Tea Party groups (they paid to bus in Tea Party counter-demonstrators in Wisconsin Saturday) Most of their money is oil money, and they are huge financial players in politics, funding Republican candidates. One of the brothers once ran for federal office as a Libertarian.

To quote President Obama "We Won".

The man was elected Governor - not dictator. He's thrown his lot in with the Koch brothers, rather than his citizens. He's absolutely refusing to budge. Good luck with that.

I seem to recall we just finished two years of complete and total obstructionism within the Senate of the United States. Don't recall you complaining about the minority dictating to the majority what will happen, and what will not, there. They all need to grow up, and work together.

even if it means you have to compromise your principles

oh sorry

forgot who I was talking to

:rolleyes:

No, you do not have to compromise your principles to compromise politically.

How's that crazy birther conspiracy thing you love working for you? Were you sad the Supreme Court threw it out?

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/loca...cc4c03286.html

Koch brothers quietly open lobbying office in downtown Madison

The billionaire brothers whose political action committee gave Gov. Scott Walker $43,000 and helped fund a multi-million dollar attack ad campaign against his opponent during the 2010 gubernatorial election have quietly opened a lobbying office in Madison just off the Capitol Square.

Charles and David Koch, who co-own Koch Industries Inc. and whose combined worth is estimated at $43 billion, have been recently tied with Walker's push to eliminate collective bargaining rights for public workers. The two have long backed conservative causes and groups including Americans for Prosperity, which organized the Tea Party rally Saturday in support of Walker's plan to strip public workers of collective bargaining rights and recently launched the Stand with Scott Walker website.

Tim Phillips, president of Americans for Prosperity, acknowledged in a New York Times story Tuesday that he had encouraged Walker even before the election to mount a showdown with labor groups.

Koch Companies Public Sector LLC occupies a seventh-floor suite at 10 E. Doty St. According to an unidentified tenant there, the lobbying group moved in two weeks before Walker was elected governor on November 2. Jeffrey Schoepke, the company's regional manager, did not return a phone call seeking more information on the firm.

Actually their goal is to use genetic engineering at UW Madison to clone the perfect laborer and eliminate all jobs for people currently employed.

Can I ask you one question? Since when is collective bargaining in the public sector a god given right?

Here is what Democratic President FDR had to say:

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

What does a god have to do with anything? :zz:

Legally - which is the only standard in our country - there is nothing wrong with unions in a constitutional sense. Unions are definitively allowed within our "union" of states. In both public and private sector.

Collective bargaining is an agreement, a contract, between and employer and their employees. It's pure libertarian capitalism in action - each side is to bargain towards their own maximum self-interest and benefit. They shake on the result agreement and sign on the dotted line.

So when a corporate mouthpiece like Scott Walker attempts to quietly ram through a bill ending 50 years of collective bargaining rights within a few days, with little debate - the unions, and those that support them, most certainly have every "right" to stand up for their own self-interest. It's the Libertarian, capitalistic thing to do ;)

In Wisconsin, public sector employees earn about 5% less than their counterpart in the private sector. That could be one reason why unions still exist in Wisconsin.

Because in places where employees feel treated and paid fairly for their work, unions do not gain footholds.

Not to mention the threats to all workers on a federal level right now, where some current congressmen want to relax child labor laws, lower the minimum wage, relax workplace safety regulations, etc.

Seems unions may be more needed than ever in the next few years if those guys get their way.

In typically democratic fashion you didn't answer my question. Since when is collective bargaining in the public sector a right?

:zz: Nonsense. Wrong. I clearly answered it. Look again. Second paragraph. You know, that Constitution thingy that gives us our "rights" to enter legal agreements? All our decades of previous constitutional law that verifies our "right" to form and bargain as a union? And an employers "right" to pay all employees according to bargaining agreements they've made with a "union"?

I don't know why I even try with you. The constitution does not state that collective bargaining is a right. Legal agreements and collective bargaining are not the same thing. WI has some of the most rigorous consumer protection and labor laws in the country so collective bargaining is not needed anymore other than to negotiate on salaries, which is still allowed under the proposal.

Now, this is just ... sad, if true
 

Oh, gawd, this has been confirmed by Walker's office ... sigh. Reminds of when Sarah Palin thought she was talking to Sarkozy.

Only far worse about revealing what Scott Walker thinks about the unions, and how to end the impasse. Wow. Read all the way to the end and listen to the tape.

Don't these guys have aids to keep them from accidentally stepping in it and ending their political careers? Seriously. Some heads need to roll here.

Gov. Scott Walker Gets Punked By Journalist Pretending To Be David Koch

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_827058.html

And here:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/wei...nk-caller.aspx

Can't lose the lame insults and talk about the topic? Try really hard to step out of your normal.

You're right, there is no mention of the words "collective bargaining rights" in the Constitution.

Yet our legal system, up to and including the Supreme Court, for decades have ruled those very unions, in a variety of forms, legal. Legal = "a constitutional right" in our world. Do you have any compelling evidence at all that there has been no right to form unions? Because if so, you'd better tell the Supreme Court. They've apparently been wrong all these decades according to you.

There is nothing wrong with the right to form unions. Unions are legal and you have every right to form a union, however last I checked we live in a country based on freedom of choice and people should have the right to choose whether or not to belong to the union in the public sector. If the unions are so great and provides such huge benefits to the workers why are they scared of giving the employees the choice to belong or not belong? WEAC (the WI teacher's union) which is funded thru tax payer money (thru paying teachers salaries) donated $1.57 million last year to 4 senate democrats because it is all about the kids.

Walker law loses $46 million in federal funding
 

See, Governor Walker, this is why you do not try and secretly rush through legislation that changes things markedly (eliminate collective bargaining rights) without some time, a deep breath and public debate:


Sam Stein reports that Walker bill, if passed, will lose Wisconsin $46 million of the $74 million it gets in federal transportation funding

Some Dems have an emergency amendment to exclude Transportation union members from Walkers union-busting bill ready, in an attempt to save this money for the state. Walker's office has not yet commented, so it's unknown if Walker knew about this or not (is the federal fund loss deliberate or just a mistake of ignorance?)

Whoa. Wrong. Once the taxpayers money goes into the paycheck, that money belongs to the employee. Nobody has the right to tell an employee what to spend their hard-earned money on.

Your argument would have merit if the employee had a choice to belong or not belong to the union which in the case of the teachers union in WI they do not have that choice.

:zz: Nope. Once the money is earned and that paycheck is cut, all that money is the employees. Period.

That money doesn't belong to taxpayers. Taxpayers have zero say in how an employees money is spent. That's beyond absurd - Big Government controlling how you spend your pay!?

Perhaps employees should only be allowed to spend it at one company store?

You are talking about the collective bargaining agreement an employer bargains for themselves. You seem to have a problem with what the state has bargained for themselves. That has nothing to do with what employees spend their money upon. Sounds like you need to get angry at those in your state government that bargained an agreement with teachers that you don't care for.

I believe what he is saying is that the teachers are paid with taxpayer money AND before they get paid, thier union dues are taken out of thier checks involuntarily because they are forced currently to be in the union.