JJ Graci went on the air and talked about Barbaro being dead. The guy has no credibility.

Brother Derek was the best horse that the West coast had going to the Kentucky Derby from a group that looked to be talented and improving. The group didn't improve and to compare this group to a horse (Bernardini) that sat on the side line during the run for the roses is simply not fair. Bother Derek will improve as he gets older and he will turn out to be another Precisionist racing on the West Coast and I wish his connections all the good luck.

I wish Brother Derek nothing but good luck; he is a game, talented horse. I do not agree with you about Bernardini; illness delayed his quest for the TC jewels. He ran a huge Preakness and he has been delivering ever since. He is a brilliant animal who is good for the game.

chese
 

sorry that was suppose to be cheese

man that cali cow can kick a soccer ball
crank was outrageous

He is where the bar has been set from most of us. The only true wyt to compare a group of horses is to race them. When BD won the Santa Anita Derby I don't think there was a horse in America that was going to beat him at home and that includes Barbaro. When Barbaro won the Kentucky Derby there wasn't a horse in the world that was going to compete with him that day and if he had stayed healthy Bernardini would of had the taste of defeat. Just the way I see it.

I dont see what the big hub bub is here about Joel is saying about Brother Derek. I dont agree with him but what is the problem that some of you are having with the opinion?

Maybe "fraud" is a harsh term but Ive been to the track enough to say that "fraud" is a rather mild way to refer to a horse that disappoints.

Opinions on horses are going to vary from good to bad. If only flowery opinions were posted here in reference to the ability of a said horse, then this place would be quite boring. Instead of bashing the "critic" wouldnt it be more constructive to simply defend the horse by stating its merits?

True, but that doesn't mean that I think he should die or anything.....I like the horse, just not as a racing performer...I like all horses!

Fraud is a relative term....a race track term...Nobody has ever heard that statement? That surpirses me with all the NYers on this site because I'm from New Orleans and those two places probably feature the biggest "knockers" in the racing industry...

I couldn't have said it any better, Steve.....

Leave it up to you know who to make a mountain out of an ant hill, especially suggesting that it was a smear against a handicap man because he trains the horse?...what a loser you are, sir....you are truly sick and the stereotypical racetracker that this sport gets a bad rep for at times...:(

For the 6tH TIME - fraud is a relative term...a racetrack term....I regret using it now because of the lack fo sense of humor on this thread...sorry..\

As for your final paragraph, that is what I get paid to do in a sense....

I'd hate to prove you wrong yet again.......:p

I'm glad somebody sees what I meant....Thanks Nost....I don't mean to be maliscious with any of my posts...."fraud" has negat6ive conotations to it when used in most way, but not in racing....it is as good as "overrated" or under-achiever" where I come from....

He's not a fraud, Gander...he is one of the best things and brightest stories this game has produced this year and every gguy who roots for the underdog or the little guy - like we all do at times - should really appreacite what Lava Man has done and cling on to him...

I was just pointing out that from an analysts standpoint he has failed everytime he has shipped out of California.....just check his PPs...doesn't mean he sucks or is a fraud in what many of you ercieve I meant by that word....

I think everyone knew that after that quote...that is Classic commentary from that trainer :D

Exactly......................

There was NO 3-year-old that got more press the first half of this year than Briother Derek did...NOne, zilch, nada....just pure facts...he got MUCH more attention in the media than Barbaro, Bluegrass Cat, Lawyer Ron and Sweetnorthernsaint wished they would have gotten.....that is the facts...

The two weeks leading up to the Derby at CD, there was NO horse that had more attention and press than Brother Derek.....I know because i was there every morning....they had press conferences for him every morning after he trained....Do you think Matz and the Barabro camp had that sort of attention?....Not at all. As a matter of fact, they were all in the same barn with Sweetnorthernsaint and Steppenwolfer - and Brother Derek got ALL the crowd every day.....

...he was the story, and whether or not he was bet down as the favorite in the race (by the way, his post position probably cost him from being the favorite if you want me to be quite honest...many people who understand handicapping and how the Derby is bet called that before the race even ran...) - he WAS the favorite for the Derby by all other accounts and was labled as that all spring...

Thus, when you are a BAD 4th in a short field in a non-listed stakes event after you have been working well for your second-season debut, you are going to get PLENTY of criticism form people who never believed the horse was genuinely a first-class animal of his generation....doesn't mean the horse sucks or desereves to die, or that I am making fun of Dan Hendricks for being in a wheel chair (like Oracle suggested), it just means that he is a fraud in the racetrack sense of the word - which means he was overhyped, an overachiever, etc....thats all :)

Hell, if he were to run in the Travers and run foruth off the layoff - then fine -but he ran 4th in a short field and had absolutely NO RESPONSE in a LISTED stakes event....

You wouldn't sit back and watch Tiger Woods win one tournament in a year, or sit back and watch Barry Bonds only hit 3 HRs in a year without making mention or noticing it, would you?...No..

It is my job as a racing analyst to noitice and acknowledge when this sort of activity happens with some of our games biggest equine figures so that people can be completely aware of the disappointment and completely understand it.....thats my job in a sense....

IMO (for all of you watcing TVG during the race), Simon Bray was trying to make excuses for his performnace saying that it will set him up nicely for next time, etc...which was all sugar-coating bull**** and I'm dissappointed as an analyst that he would mislead the public that way.....he should always be honest and educate the public...that is his job...I don't know if he was just trying to be optimistic, but ANY analyst who watched that race could have ZERO positive things to say about it for a horse of his stature to peform like that...go back and watch the race.....Solis wrapped up on him early in the stretch and this multiple Grade 1 winner could offer ZERO fight at any point in the stretch in a LISTED stakes event.....he eye-balled Cindago - who is only a maiden winner off a layoff longer than Brother Derek's - and Cindago absolutely broke his heart fair and square...a maiden off a layoff did!!!....I, for one, expect more from a multiple Grade 1 winner who was a highly-regarded as he was earlier this year when being the Derby favorite....

Just my opinion....

i think barbaro got a lot of attention, as did his trainer for the airplane story. and the fact he had not one, but two undefeated colts heading into the derby. barbaro also got attention because of the five week layoff.

bro derek may have been the #1 story for west coast horses, and of course he would get more press also because of giacomo, as well as his 'human interest' story with his trainer being in a wheelchair.

but i really think that if he had gotten so much more press altogether, that he'd have been the fave, not sweetnorthernsaint.

a lot of horses fail first time off a layoff. remains to be seen if that's the new bro derek, or if that race is a toss.

Many analysts hated the fact that Barbaro had a hard time putting away Sharp Humor in the Florida Derby...say what you will and I'm not saying I agree with that assessment, but I really don't think it was the layoff thing as much as it was the fact that many just thought he was a turf horse and Brother Derek was winning far more comfortably on the West coast - albeit he wasn't defeating anything that was worth much.....

Trust me from being around CD for the Derby, Brother Derek was the feature horse for the media and it wasn't even really close....yes, NBC clung to the plane stort because that is what NBC does...remember, that audience is not a core audience...those are one-time a year fans watching teh Derby and they want human-interest stories......Hendricks was another human-interest story, but Brother Derek still got all of the "Industry trades" attention....

Sweetnorthernsaint was the fave based on his works at CD, his post draw, and his wise-guy buzz about running fast in the illinois Derby and all other preps by accounts of all speed figure sheets.....and he was...if you go back and look, Sweetnorthernsaint was the fastest horse on all sheets..Thoroughgraph, Rags, Beyers...all of them he was right up there with the fastest numbers and best patterns....Plus, he showed that he coulkd carry his game all around the country....

Many very smart people who work for CD and have been oriernted with studying the Derby and been involved in it for YEARS agree that Brother Derek's draw probably cose him to being the favorite or close to the favorite..

Well thank heaven for the analysts and smart people at at CD who have studied the derby for years. Without them we wouldn't have been able to guess that with a better draw BD would have attracted more win money.

What next will they discover? Wait let me guess, If a horse runs well off the rail they lose ground?

Nice sarcasm, Jim....But seriously, I was like you whe I first showed up at CD before Derby 2005 ad I was truly amazedat the different sciences in place...say what you will about the corporation ad I have some things I certainly don't like about them, but they do have some very sharp people in certain places with loads of experience with making money out of the Derby niche.....Remember, this race is a dynamic of its own...it is no other race with advanced wagering, 20 horses, etc.....they know through extensive research how that product is affected ad one predictio that was right on key was that Brother derek would be a lot higher odds than normally anticipated with his outside post....and that is at a very elementary level...

I think you'd be surprised....Remember, we're not talking about Magna or NYRA here, we're talking about a corporation in this industry that actualy knows how to make money and run a profitable business in this industry - which is a rarity with the defficient businesses in our game...

I don't think it's fair to judge BD based on his performnace yesterday. He obviously didn't fire. His bad race yesterday does not take away what he did earlier in the year. I would say the same thing about Flower Alley. I'm not going to judge FA based on his last two races. The horse obviously is not the same horse right now. FA's bad race yesterday doesn't have any bearing on how I view his races from last year. He ran some very good races last year. You can't take that away from him. It doesn't matter if they retire him tomorrow, which they probably will. He already proved himself.

I will admit that BD still needs to prove himself on the road. But his loss yesterday was at home on a day where he obviously didn't have it. He may not like Del Mar. He didn't run particularly well their last year.

Anyway, I'm only going to judge a horse's ability off their best race. I'm not going to judge their ability on some race where they didn't fire.

In that case, do believe that Bellamy Road was the seond best 3-year-old in the last 30 years next to Secretariat because of his one good race in the Wood that may have been the best 3-year-old performance since Secrartariat's Belmont score? :rolleyes:

I think Bellamy Road was a great horse. It's too bad that we'll never know exactly how good he was. They totally mismanged him and now the horse will never run again.

I don't think you can call him the second best 3 year in 30 years, because he only ran one great race(The Wood Memorial). That's really not enough to call him an all-time great. He also ran a very good race in the Travers under adverse conditions.

Nowadays, you can't really expect a horse to run 15 great races. They usually retire pretty quickly. I think Ghostzapper was great even though he only ran about 10 times.

Anyway, BM certainly did not accomplish enough to call him an all-time great.

The El Cajon was the easiest one to handicap for me on the whole card.

Brother Derek and Bob and John were both coming off grueling Triple Crown efforts. They had every reason to look suspect on their first start back.

Cindago earned a 98 beyer as a 2 year old showing he had talent. He had bullets on his worktab. By placing him in this race, his connections seemed very confident in his ability to me. He was rested and ready to fire.

When I looked at the 2/5 odds on BD I thought that was insane! Who would waste money at 2/5? You'd barely get anything back if he did win anyway.

True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

I dont agree with you here Joel. Oracle, in the midst of his rant, actually makes a pretty good point. Which is...horses go through form cycles. There are plenty of horses that go through stretches in their respective careers in which they look far from what they did in top form.

Is there any question that Brother Derek handles that group from saturday if in top form? Numbers and results support this. Its not like he was stepping up to older horses or better three year olds.

Was Skip Away not a great horse? Was he not at least a very good one? Look at some of the races that he lost. How about Artax? Housebuster? More recently, look at some of the horses that Pico Central lost to when he was off form. Or how about Congaree? Was Shake you down a "fraud" when he was winning every sprint in sight or is seeing him running for a tag at charlestown the fruad?

You may ultimately be right about brother Derek. He may have been a precocious three year old that beat up on a weaker than usual group out west. But...I think i will give him a couple of more races before i decide that for myself. He may very well just be going through a cycle of bad form.

No, that's not true. Look at Flower Alley even last year. He got beat by 15 lengths in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. Did that race prove much? It obviously didn't prove much because he came back in his next start and ran 2nd in the BC Classic. One bad race doesn't mean much. Most great horses had a few bad races.

i stand by what i said earlier in this thread ,his derby run with the **** post and horrible trip in the derby and still to place like he did shows a hell of alot . lets think if he had a better post . horrible trip in preak again. like oracle said-injurymaybe-or just plain worn out from the preps and tc-or rusty- but to use fraud after one race and even then after all his stake wins is crap. so all his wins were a fluke and should have lost and his good run in the derby was a fluke because the horse is not what people say he is? well what the heck is he allowance material, claimer? nobody out here is saying he's a great or super horse but a fraud. i know who the fraud is !!!!!!!!!!!

and thats what bd did thru all his preps and the derby, showed up and fired every damn time and and won and ran respectably, your going off one race not knowin the reason for the poor finish. please...............

rupert since i got on here i have to tell you , you are one of the most logical ones on this board always enjoy your insights

Thanks PD. I appreciate the compliment.

Yes, that is exactly correct.

Lava Man gets a lot of flack for being a west coast horse. Let's looks at Bro D's record. He is specifically an LA horse. He has six wins. All came at Hol or SA. He has a 3rd and 4th at Delmar, a 4th at Bel, a 4th at CD, and a 4th at Pim.

So, I guess it was Hendricks fault then?...I mean, he was breezing lights out and fit and ready for his first start off a freshener by all reports...showed a 58 breeze and looked good in the flesh....So, if that is the case, then Hendricks doesn't know his horse very well.....the way I look at it, he should have still made a better account of himself - regardless of his form or will or anything else....he was fit, was fresh, and supposedly has a little class - that alone should have put him in the TRI of a listed stakes event, shouldn't it?

NO multiple Grade 1 winner with the inflated reputation that he had should get a free pass for such an uninspiring and mediocre effort as that was....he came home like a ten-claimer and it was disgraceful....he should display more class than that if he indeed is to be believed as "genuine" by the racing faithful whom labled him as the Derby favorite all winter and spring.....

That is just my opinion and I'm sticking to it....when the USA Olympic basketball team gets schooled by the shorter, slower, and less athletic International teams (which is getting ridiculously regular now and it is a disgarce and discredit to the entire NBA - IMO), it is the medias responsibility and American basketball publics responsibility to call them out on it because it is unacceptable......As a horse racing fan and analyst, I don't see any excuse for letting what happened to Brother Derek just slide......it was a joke of a performnace....you'll never see Bernardini or a real champ spit the bit like that - especially against listed stakes horses.....what a shame...