Go to www.racingpost.com

Click on the Frankel story, should have the stretch run.

Impressive horse.. They seem set on running him at 4.. He rated a bit today also, doesnt even look like he is running fast?

From the post-race comments, Henry Cecil suddenly seems hellbent on running him at 10f.

Maybe he'll come over for the Hollywood Derby.

Full race, keep the mute button handy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QCKTzBw1w

Personally, I couldn't care less if he comes over here. If he ran here, all I'd be doing is watching the race on tv, just as I have his other races so where he races makes no difference. Also, coming over here would not provide him with tougher competition. The horses he's facing there are far superior to what he'd face here. It would be like the Packers winning the Super Bowl but then having to go prove themselves against Michigan.

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that. It would be nice, of course, but not necessary. Can you rate him ahead of a horse like Zarkava, who was able to beat Goldikova at a mile and win the Arc? Ahead of Sea the Stars, who was also versatile enough to win going short and long? My head says no but I do believe that he's good a miler as I've seen and just because they haven't tried something doesn't mean to me that he can't do it. Two races before winning the BC Classic, Ghostzapper had never won at 9f.

Who exactly has Frankel beaten? Zoffany, who almost tagged him at Ascot, ran last behind Gio Ponti in the Shadwell Mile recently. Excelebration and Dubawi Gold have placed behind Frankel multiple times this year. They're like his Washington Generals. He hasn't faced on Goldikova. He beat Canford Cliffs in the Sussex, but it was fairly evident that one was injured during the running of the race.

So we should just take it for granted that he would have won the Derby, the Eclipse, the BC Classic, etc. Good stuff.

This is all an elaborate way of saying King Glorious would have beat Sunday Silence and Easy Goer at 10f, isn't it?

You are good at interpreting things the way you want to. There is no point in debating with that. I sure don't think I said he'd win those races but if that's how you take it, that's up to you. All I said is that I dont automatically say that he couldn't have.

And no, I don't think KG would have beaten them at 10f. I think at 9f he could have maybe done it if he was allowed an easy lead. I'm positive he could have done so at 8f. At 10f, if he was lone speed, I would have bet him and hoped for the best but not expected it. Don't know what this has to do with Frankel though.

Fair enough, though I don't think anyone else said he wouldn't have won those races, either. But I bet, unlike you, most would have liked to see him try.

How about the competition issue that you skipped over?

On a neutral racetrack King Glorious wouldn't have beaten either horse at 7f, never mind 8f. However, had he faced the other two together, he'd almost certainly take a lot of starch out of Sunday Silence, setting things up perfectly for Easy Goer.

He would have made a good rabbit.

Again, you are making incorrect assumptions. I would love to see him try. Don't know why you think me saying I don't NEED to see it is the same as not wanting to see it.

As for the competition, other than Goldikova, he's faced the best over there I think. That Zoffany almost beat him is as inconsequential as Lorenzoni beating Easy Goer, Onion beating Secretariat, Avenging Force beating KG, or Anaabas Creation almost beating Zenyatta. It's racing and strange things happen sometimes.

Before you start talking in circles, I'll just repeat the most salient point:

I disagree with your assertion that a horse that thus far has only raced at 7f and 8f does not need to run further to prove he can stay 10-12f.

The whole point of racing horses competitively is to eliminate those "shoulda, coulda, woulda" hypotheticals. Hypotheticals that leave horses like King Glorious dangling in limbo as would-be all-time greats, when they're more likely to be no better than Jolie's Halo.

of course he has to run successfully at 10f to prove he could. otherwise it's pure speculation. if he never tries, there's a reason for it.

GAnd I disagree with your assertion that racing is about proving who can stay a long distance of ground. Just as with human runners, there are all kinds of different types. Usain Bolt doesn't have to prove he can run a marathon to still be one of the best sprinters in history. I think there is something to being the best in the world at what you do. You prefer the stayers and that's fine. But that doesn't make everyone that likes sprinters or milers wrong. Just different opinions. Michael Jordan couldn't do what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar could do and vice versa but that doesn't mean that they both weren't all-time greats.

He wouldn't need to beat Nathaniel at 10-12f any more than Nathaniel would need to beat him at 7-8f. Either of them doing so would ADD to their greatness but neither loses anything by not doing it.

Of course he'd have to do it to prove he could. That much is obvious. Again, I've never said he could. I don't know either way. All I said was that there was no proof that he couldn't.

Of course, I said nothing of the sort.

And you certainly didn't make it clear in your original post that you were only stating that Frankel was a great miler. I suspect a change of tune, to be perfectly honest.

Nevertheless, I apologize if I misinterpreted:

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that.

...to mean that Frankel should be credited with stamina he hasn't displayed in a sanctioned race.

I guess the allusion to Ghostzapper threw me off.

I can see how that was taken that way but it wasn't what I meant. What I meant is that I think he is a top class runner and could perform well going further. It's my belief that he'd do very well going 10f but I'm far less optimistic about 12f. While this is just my belief, I offer no proof that he could.....because their is none. There is also no proof that he couldn't and I don't think saying because they haven't tried it yet offers proof that he can't. The GZ reference was because I remembered hearing the same kind of things before he stretched out. I think that great horses do things that don't fall into the ordinary and I think Frankel is a great horse who's legend or reputation would be enhanced by beating top horses going longer but will still be that of a top class horse, at least in my mind, even if he never races past 8f.

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse...n-qeii/932495/

Frankel got the joint highest Racing Post Rating ever after today's race. To be honest, I didnt think it was THAT good. I am always a little bit skeptical when they justify the winner's huge rating by giving the runner up a fairly big mark as well. While Excelebration is OK, I dont think he is as good as the ratings suggest.


I remember when Sea The Stars was winning, the handicappers were giving ridiculous ratings to horses like Fame and Glory and Rip Van Winkle who were decent but nothing brilliant.

It will be great to see him next year though (fingers crossed). I just hope the prospect of an unbeaten horse doesn't prevent them from showing everyone what Frankel can actually do. I would absolutely love to see him do something like Queen Anne - Eclipse - Juddmonte - Arc - Breeders Cup Classic next year but I dont think they will be that maverick..

'The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that.'

i guess i misunderstood your point here. whatever.

By far the best horse I've seen - looks even better this year - beat a race fir Excelebration by more than he did last year - what everyone really wants is for him to face off v Black Caviar or Cirrus Des Aigles to see just how unbelievable he is!!

I thought Mark Johnson summed it up nicely: "It really looked like a stallion taking on a little foal as they entered the final two furlongs"

That horse is unbelievable. He made a mockery of the Queen Anne.

Pretty awesome racehorse....Now if they would only bring him over for the BC.

He looks even better at age 4.

The gamble is running him in the Breeders Cup Classic -- he's bred terribly top and bottom for dirt and sensationally well for turf on top and bottom.

Obviously, they're not going to bring him here to run in the BC Mile.

Dang it!! I missed it :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agM-AMeDCh4

I never tried to see if I could make figures for any of his races. Going to study them a little later when I get time. Visually, it sure looks like he's improved from age 3 to age 4 like virtually all healthy horses will.

Wow! :eek:

They should enter for the bc and scratch over a bad post draw.

:tro:

I'm looking back through Frankel's past races -- and in the recent ones -- I can't find another race on the same day and at the same distance until June 14th of last year in the St. James's Palace at Royal Ascot.

This, however, was Frankel on his absolute worst day.

Frankel won by 3/4 of a length over Zoffany in 1:39.24

On that exact same card, Canford Cliffs won by one length over Goldikova in 1:38.38

Frankel went 0.86 slower. The past performances of 2nd place finisher Zoffany cements the fact that the older horses were faster on that day.



It's a shame that the only day I can find a good comparison to attempt an American style speed figure for Frankel -- was the one day he didn't bring his best stuff.

Was this the race everyone criticized the ride for putting Frankel in a drive halfway through the race? What was Frankel's time form rating going into todays race? I keep hearing on the broadcast that he is the highest ranked horse in the world...

Yes. Whoever was riding Frankel that day must have been studying Ronnie Franklin's Belmont.

Here is the video of Frankel holding on for dear life to win:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmu_pHF0sA


He caught a break that the race was only a mile and that Zoffany was no world-beater.

Thanks.. Only rated 2lbs below all time high ranked Sea Bird. Imagine if he was a classic winner over a mile. He might be considered the greatest ranked horse of all time..

I've always been a little skeptical of those Timeform ratings.

They aren't true American style speed figures and the way racing is in Europe makes them very subjective.

Of all the Euro horses I looked at -- Harbinger is BY FAR the fastest I've seen on a day when everything was clean and an American style number could be made. Sea The Stars was an undefeated Arc winner ... but he had some clean days to ... and was never anywhere close to Harbinger's clean race. Timeform had them both at 140 (Sea The Stars had a monster reputation and Harbinger came from out of nowhere at age 4 and never ran again after his masterpiece. He was injured in his very next workout)

147 Timeform for Frankel.

He's now the highest rated horse in the 60+ year history of Timeform by 2 full pounds.

Frankel went 2.29 seconds (or about 13.5 lengths and about 25 Beyer points) faster than Group 1 3-year-olds did at the same distance in the St James's Palace Stakes at the same distance today.

I made the Harbinger number as conservative as humanly possible to keep it no higher than a figure of 125.

I think Frankel's performance today was conservatively in the 120-to-125 range.

Easily the 2nd fastest turf race I've ever did a projection for -- trailing only Harbinger's win in the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7pEsp2WKc )

Frankel was simply stunning today. Best horse of my lifetime, better than Secretariat? He's not even fully mature yet, and look at how he's become even more massive this year. Two pounds better than Sea Bird! Can't wait to see him stretch out to mile and more.

Don't forget second ranked horse, the great Aussie sprint mare Black Caviar, runs Saturday am at Ascot (last day meet)

What was the quality of todays field like?

It will be a shame if we never get to see him. However, I disagree strongly with those who want to see him in the Classic. I'd much rather witness his brilliance than a ridiculous gamble like the one they took with his sire Galielo when they sent him on the dirt. Why does anyone think he needs to prove anything on dirt (other than breeders), when he is quite possibly the best at his craft we've seen in a generation.

Godolphin (Sahkee) and Coolmore (Galileo) both took shots at the 2001 BC Classic. Sahkee nearly took down the whole thing. Galileo split the field. All in all, not a bad performance.

Especially since Godolphin and Coolmore ran 1-2 in the BC Turf with other horses on the same card, some 6 lengths clear of any American-based rival.

They've already said they won't waste their time bringing Frankel over for the BC Mile. Basically only track configuration/post position could get him beat. It's a longshot, but hopefully, they go beyond his "craft" and actually broaden his horizons at some point.