hello to you!

yeah, i went to ntra myself yesterday and took note of $ won....

to THIS point, bernardini hasn't done anything more than what barbaro has done...it's just later in the year. also, take note that barbaro beat four times as many horses @ the 10f distance--FOUR months ago!

at this point, it's a toss-up.

bernardini must win over older, it would be the only thing that would separate him from barbaro.

also, everyone keep in mind that altho bernardinis margin was the largest since general assembly in '79, barbaro's margin of victory was the largest in 60 years.

That's a great post, and point Danzig. If I may add, it was never my intention to say Barbaro should get the award out of any kind of sympathy vote. I'm sorry someone tried to corrupt that. But it was my intent to illustrate Barbaro STILL has done more "on track" than Bernardini to this point and it's just wrong-my opinion, I suppose-to think Bernardini deserves the award if voted on now. I don't think anyone one is disputing if Bernardini beats older horses he wouldn't get the award. In fact, if he does and they gave him HOY and Barbaro 3-y/o champ that would almost seem to be correct in many ways.

How in the world is anyone supposed to form an intelligent opinion on this topic until the season is over?

It's like the old Johnny Carson skit ..."Karnac" maybe it was...some people know the answers before the question is even asked.

$$$ won shouldn't have the impact it once did with the inflated purses abound. Otherwise, you could just insert the Dubai and Breeders Cup winners as HOY.

LOL @ saying that Barbaro beat "19 pretty damn good horses". Please stop it. Just because it was the Derby doesn't mean all of the horses were pretty damn good. Or even good for that matter. In fact, if u take all 19, there might have been four average to good ones in the entire group. There aren't even 19 good horses in the entire crop.

This is CLASSIC. U honestly think it would make sense for a horse to be the HOY but not even the champion of his own division? What's next? Maybe we should take the next guy that loses a race for city mayor and install him as the president of the United States. Come on now. If u are the best horse in the country, by default u have to be the best in your division.

What I don't get is why Bernardini HAS to not only face but also BEAT older horses in order to be deserving.......but Barbaro didn't even have to face older. Doesn't make sense to me.

If Bernardini is going to be HOY, he better damn well beat older horses. I would expect the same for Barbaro, although IMO, Barbaro was the better horse of the two. Barbaro didn't have the chance to face older, but IMO Bernardini is the 2nd best out of this year's crop of 3 year olds. And if he is so spectacular, why did he skip the Belmont?

no....bernardini is the only one who can set himself apart, and above by beating older...obviously barbaro can't do that....bernardini beating the same colts that barbaro beat does not prove he's the better horse. doing so would only show that he is equal to him...

barbaro did his racing in the first half. bernardini in the last--so later is 'better'???? why should the latter half carry more weight than the former?

9 times out of 10 the "latter" is going to get the award. Not right, but that is how it is.

not so buffy...just off the top of my head.
afleet alex
smarty jones
charismatic

all three done before the year was half over....

i can find more...but i'm supposed to be WORKING....LOL

and don't forget point given...the travers was his last race, didn't face older...tiznow won the bcc and lost the eclipse.

That's not the point here. If your criteria for a 3yo being named HOY is that he has to beat older horses, that's fine. But don't say that Bernardini HAS to do it but excuse Barbaro from having to do it. There is nothing that says for sure that Barbaro would have done it so he shouldn't be excused. The point was that it's ridiculous to say that a horse can be the best horse in the country (HOY) but not even win the championship as the best horse in his own division.

As for the Belmont, why run in it? It's a worthless race unless a horse is going for the TC. It proves NOTHING. It's not like back in the older days when the Belmont was a chance to see which of the 3yo's could handle the 12f distance and would be able to compete with the older horses in the fall championship races, which were at 12f and further. Nowdays, this is the only 12f dirt stakes race in the country, at least the only grade one. So it's basically been turned into something totally irrelevant. Unless there is a TC on the line. I know that if I owned a horse that ran in the Derby and didn't win, there is not a chance in hell that he'd come anywhere close to the starting gate for either the Preakness or the Belmont. There are too many other races out there for as much money or nearly as much and I'd rather go in races that are at more manageable distances instead of the Belmont. Also, look at some of the Belmont horses over the past 10 years:

2006-Jazil.....might be done for the year
2005-Afleet Alex never raced again; Giacomo didn't race again that year
2004-Birdstone, two more career races; Smarty never raced again
2003-Funny Cide.....still around (gelding); Empire Maker one more race
2002-War Emblem......few more races after the Belmont
2001-Point Given......two more career races
1999-Charismatic.......never raced again
1998-Real Quiet........didn't race again that year
1997-Silver Charm......didn't race again that year (well, the Malibu on 12/26)

Is this a race that u would want to run in?

Actually, yes. It would mean that my horse had that one more G1 under his belt IF Bernardini could have gotten the distance (which I doubt he could have.) In fact, has Bernardini ever even been a mile and a quarter? :confused:

And a horse doesn't always win his division and the HOY. That's just the way it works... I don't do the decision making on that one, but I think that as it stands right now, Barbaro deserves the 3 year old division. Bernardini puts on one hell of a show, but until he beats some quality horses (older or not), I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.

He's won at 9.5f and at 10f.

I'd like u to tell me one horse that won HOY but wasn't even named champion in his own division.

Again though, the point was not to debate which of the two is more deserving. That's unanswerable as to which is better. Personally, I think it's Bernardini easily. But who knows? The point was that if u think Bernardini could get the award as the best horse period, how could he not get it as the best 3yo? That doesn't make sense.

It could happen this year, King ... if ...

... if ... as rumored ... they count "Get Well" cards as votes in the 3YO balloting ... but disallow them in the HOTY voting ...

... the awards could be split.

Other than that ... you're right ... it's never happened.

Wait ... I've got the answer !!!

It was a trick question ... the answers are ... Twilight Tear, Busher, and Lady's Secret ... because ... they weren't named champions in his division ... they were named champions in hers.

See ... you can fool the rest of them ... but you can't fool me.

I stand corrected.

Didn't I already give you an integrity award?

Hmmm ... well OK ... now you've got two of them.

Ok. Good answer. I give with this other person though. I just fail to understand how someone can sit there and say that a horse can be the best horse in the country but not even the best 3yo. I guess that's like taking the recent World Series title that the Chicago White Sox won........as the best team in baseball.....and giving it to the Cubs, who weren't even the best team in their city.

Bernardini easily??? Why is that ? Barbaro beat more horses in one race than Bernardini beat in 3 and dont tell me Bernardini beat smaller but more quality horses than barbaro beat. In the Travers there was ONE grade one winner & one grade 2 winner. Lots of horses look good beating 4 & 5 horse fields.

i don't see any way in the world for bernardini to get HOTY and then NOT get top 3 yo....

we'll just have to see how it all shakes out at the end of the year, when it's all decided anyway....talk now about it is just that, talk. can be entertaining, but that's about it.

It's not a knock on the ability of Barbaro. I think he was a really good horse also. I just think Bernardini is in a different league. I could be wrong though. I think Bernardini has been one-upping Barbaro from the start though. I know it's only one way of measuring things but look at the Beyer's for the two horses. In his final TC prep, Barbaro got a 103 in the Florida Derby. Bernardini got a 104 in the Withers. Barbaro breaks out with a career high 111 in the Derby. Bernardini gets a 113 in the Preakness. Think about that for a second here. As awesome as Barbaro was in winning the Derby, he would have had to come up with an even better performance figurewise in order to have beaten Bernardini that day. Could he have done it? Nobody knows but I believe that Bernardini wins that race even if Barbaro doesn't break down. Bernardini comes back with a 114 in the Jim Dandy and a 116 in the Travers. That's now three races in a row that he's bested Barbaro's career best. Career average Beyer....Barbaro 96.8, Bernardini 100.8 How about using Bluegrass Cat as a measuring stick. Barbaro beats him by 6 1/2 at 10f. Bernardini beat him by 7 1/2. This is supposedly when Bluegrass Cat is a much improved horse.

It's entirely possible that Barbaro wasn't at his peak and could have improved even more. I don't know if that's true or not but what I do believe IS true is that Barbaro would have HAD to improve more to reach the level that Bernardini is at now. And Bernardini still hasn't even been asked to run.

Well I know it's probably not going to happen. It was merely a suggestion that should Bernardini go on to defeat open stakes company, perhaps a "sharing" of awards, if you will, would be in order. The reason being, Barbaro dominated the 3 year old division, and why punish a horse who did nothing wrong. That's an undefeated horse in my eyes, and in the eyes of many others. But King, that wasn't the point of the thread, and perhaps you failed to read the entire argument as a whole. We could wait to have this debate at the end of the year. But Oracle, the first thing I stated at the beginning was how appalled I was that the ESPN announcers had proclaimed him champion three year old by virtue of his win in the Travers. They are the ones who should have waited. We all know people, voters probably were watching, and can be swayed by what the media is telling them is truth. Hopeful the Eclipse voters take their job seriously, and don't cave to "what everyone else is doing" syndrome, ala Oscar voters "Crash".

Although beyers are a useful tool, I'm not big on them. I'd rather look at the sheets. I'll agree to disagree with you... I'm not sold on Bernardini yet.

What does he need to do for you to be sold? I dont get it. The horse is a multiple Grade I winner. Won two of the four most prestigious races for 3 year olds and he did it in convincing fashion. What else does he need to do!!!!!!!

I am sorry guys, but if Bernardini goes on and either wins one of his last two races or finishes a strong second in both of them then he is the 3 year old champ and he deserves it. Barbaro is awesome and had a remarkable career, but he did not do enough to win the award if Bernardini does the above. I feel his races trumps what Barbaro did. No sharing of the awards, Barbaro deserves to be the winner, but Bernardini deserves it more.

Number of horses beaten doesnt matter. That is odd for someone to believe. Usisng that philosophy, the horse who wins the Derby should be 3 year old champ??? That doesnt make sense.

I want him to beat more than 4 or 5 horses at a time, Euro! Geesh... why does it matter to you what I think about him? If I had put my appendix QH in a race against 5 miniature horses and he won in a convincing fashion, would I be proclaiming him the next best thing? Nope...

For me to say he's a great horse, I want to see him win against all odds. He's had nothing but a perfect set up every time he's raced. I'm sorry if I'm not so quick to jump on the same bandwagon that you did.

this thread is like a dog chasing it's tail. i haven't seen yet where anyone disagreed with the above. it's all been about 'right now' which is pointless anyway, since the awards aren't voted for right now! lol

it's like everyone is arguing, but everyone is essentially on the same side.

It isnt Bern's fault that no one shows up for his races. And it seems he races are easy because he dictates what is going on in the race. He doesn't let other horses tell him how the race is going to be run. A horse not only can dominate by winning by a large margin, they also can dominate by controlling the race. This is what Bern does.

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

What happens is Discreet Cat comes and wins his next race and then wins the Breeders Cup Classic--I think that would be enough to win the award. So you would have 3 very deserving horses. I think we should be blessed to have had three very very good horses in the same year and two of them are still running. It was like when Alex and Smarty left us, this year someone goes down and there are two more waiting to fill his star status.

well, then if we are going to give it now, it should go to barbaro. his winter/spring is better than berns spring/summer. IMO of course....


barbaro, undefeated til the preakness, when he DNF'd.(dammit)
bernardini, undefeated til he ran his first race....hehe, sorry...HAD to.

barbaro, winner on turf, dirt and in the slop.
bern--dirt and slop.
barbaro, winner of the ky derby...
bernie, winner of the preakness...

barbaro, winner of the florida derby.
bern, winner of the withers.

barbaro, largest margin of victory in 60 years! over 19..
bern, largest in 35 over 5.

barbaro, ran 10f succesfully on the first saturday in may.
bern, on the last in august.

barbaro, won the derby after a five week layoff, first time in how many years?

barbaro, seven starts, six wins, one dnf.
bern, six starts, five wins. think he finished fourth in his lone loss in january. (anyone know who won that race??)

barbaro, 2 gr1's, 2 gr 3's
bern--2 gr 1's, 1 gr 2, 1 gr 3

barbaro--2.3 mill
bern---1.6 mill

I like how you use the Withers instead of the Travers or Jim Dandy.

they were both in the spring, at about the same time, which is why i put that up. had everything to do with the calendar...

hey, do your own comparison!! ;)

yes, that's true but I wasn't the one who stated we were wasting our time debating the matter at the present. Things have a way of working themselves out...if Bernardini loses in the next two events against older horses, which I'm suspecting he will...this debate is really going to heat up

I think that many on this board are looking at Barbaro vs. Bernardini subjectively instead of objectively. I agree with you in that the two are pretty even as far as voting goes. I think that many are overly biased towards Barbaro for emotional and sympathetic reasons. It's as if they can't acknowledge the coming of a potential superhorse because the downfall of another. I won't point out any specific posters, but their arguements are weak, ignorant, hypocritical, or contradictory to the facts. I'm not saying that all of the pro-Barbaro or pro-Bernardini posters are like that...just a few. However, many of the top trainers in the industry are saying that Bernardini is one for the ages and that he would be their pick at this point for the three year old championship. That is a FACT. At this point, I believe that everyone should also just enjoy this horse. He may very well be the next Spectacular Bid, and those kinds of horses are irreplaceable.

Here are some examples of how great some think Bernardini is...

"I think right now whatever he did today, I don't think any horse can beat this horse right now," said winning rider Javier Castellano, who began celebrating his victory at the sixteenth pole.

Winning trainer Tom Albertrani said: "This horse gets better every race. I think he'll be a very tough horse later in the season against the older horses."

"I wanted all the people to recognize that he's a special horse and he's the best 3-year-old right now in the country," Castellano said.

"We know how special a horse Barbaro was, but this certainly showed to us after yesterday how great Bernardini is as well," Tom Albertrani, the trainer of Bernardini, said Sunday morning. "With all of his performances, he always wins by daylight, and I think you have to give him a lot of consideration."

"Bernardini is the 3-year-old champ to me," said Kiaran McLaughlin, the trainer of Belmont Stakes winner Jazil. "That's my opinion, everybody has one. I have a lot of respect for Barbaro. He's done it on both surfaces, dirt and turf. But this horse is just awesome. He has a presence about him. He's just a very, very special horse."

"It's hard to top what Invasor has done, but he is not the horse Bernardini is," Zito said. "Bernardini could beat Invasor five furlongs, six furlongs, a mile and a half, two miles, two and a half miles. He could beat him any day of the week."

"I was just praying he would show up as the phenomenal horse I know him to be — and he did," trainer Tom Albertrani said. "He's just getting sharper every race. It's pretty scary."

"The way he's running, as long as he stays healthy and is on top of his game he's going to be a very serious horse," Albertrani said Sunday morning outside his barn. "When he faces older horses, he'll still be the one to fear. There's more to this horse than we've seen."

"Bernardini is definitely my choice to be a champion," said trainer John Ward, who chased him in vain in the Travers with third-place finisher Dr. Pleasure and with Minister's Bid, who was last in the field of six. "He took on Bluegrass Cat and put him away, and he said goodbye to the rest of them."

"We'll, he's never been challenged," Albertrani said. "Right now, he's been winning by daylight. I don't know how much he's got left until he is challenged. Javier couldn't pull him up after the wire. The more racing he has, the better he's getting."

I'm willing to accept this as the measurement used to determine 3YO champ.

At the end of the year.