Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 661995)

please go back through this thread and tell me that im the one being uncivil. ive been called a moron, illiterate and an apologist. for what exactly? if you have read this thread and think im the one being emotional im sort of dumbfounded.

Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 662000)

i didn't say you were the one...but i can see where your criticism about emotions could apply to you as well.
just my two cents, which probably isn't even worth that. and like i said, we could all do better.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662001)

so we could all do better but i get the lecture? i know im new here but that is bs.

Originally Posted by Bigsmc (Post 662007)

If you are going to dive into one of these multi-page argument threads, you have to expect to be baited, talked down to, insulted, lectured and be called not so flattering names. It's a fact of life on internet message boards, this place is not immune.

Thick skin is a necessity for survival.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 661999)

heres what i understand. there is no chance they give out 50 million in 50 days. it wasn't going to happen from the beginning and 2 or 3 days of 2-3 million a day will still not make them close. that is fine. they have still done some good things.

i understand the way the system works. its pretty arrogant to think i dint as you have no idea what my experience is. i also understand that you cant look at the way other tracks do business and compare it to this meet because there is no guarantee there will even be racing in new jersey next year if this isn't a big success.

it will be interesting to revisit this thread after the meet.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662010)

I dont have to know what your experience level is when you claim that Monmouth was using "false advertising". That shows that you seemingly dont understand the way purses are distributed.

People here make proclamations of certainty all the time that aren't true. Do you think that the horseman's association isn't aware with how much has been paid out? Do you think they do not monitor the numbers? You understand that they are contractually obligated to do this? Perhaps Monmouth will add money to the purses toward the end of the meet? Perhaps they will add money to the stakes as well? Perhaps they will simply carry the money forward to the fall meet and increase the purse levels there? Perhaps all the races on haskell day will be boosted to 100k? Perhaps they will have a big party with the money?

As for the idea that there will be no racing in NJ if this isnt a big success...If that is so (and all signs are that it is) then why would they underpay the purses? To save the money for a meet that wont take place? They have a 12 million dollar stakes schedule. Through this weekend they will have paid out 3 million. After 36% of the meet they have only paid out 25% of the stakes money. That means obviously that the purses paid out on an average daily basis will be higher as the meet goes on. The uniqueness of the meet really isnt that it may be the last, etc. It is that they have scheduled two seperate meets with completely different purse structures. If there arent enough quality horses to fill all the scheduled allowance races during the first meet would it not make sense to hold over some of that money to the next meet as opposed to giving it away senselessly to keep up with some marketing slogan? I have no idea what they are doing nor do I really care. But the idea that each day would have $1 million dollars in purses is not only silly but easily refuted simply by looking at a condition book.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662001)

so we could all do better but i get the lecture? i know im new here but that is bs.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662012)

again no one is suggesting 1 million a day. they arent going to come close to averaging that. instead of just admitting you were wrong, you brush it off by saying "i really dont care" which is a bs copout. i already told you i was being sarcastic with the false advertising comment. you can cling to the unimportant stuff, while trying to excuse the crux of this thread but it doesnt change what is really happening. they were never going to be giving out 50 million in 50 days. never.

like i said, it will be interesting to revisit this thread after the meet. im sure you still wont care then either, after being proven wrong. again.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662009)

point taken and im fine with the back and forth. i just dont undertand why i was singled out for the lecture but i take it like its some sort of initiation.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662016)

Let me ask you a question GG. How close to $50 million do they have to give out for you not to declare that they never intended to give out the $50 million? $45 mill? $48mill? $49,999,999?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 661938)

Why is it that you dont seem to understand that there have been no false claims made? They had 50 million dollars to payout over 50 days? Is that a fact or not? Does 50 million divided by 50 days not average 1 million a day?

Just because a track has a certain amount of purse money to be paid out doesnt mean that every penny of that money gets paid out. Most tracks underpay purses in order to have a cushion going into the next meet. Because other tracks dont make you aware of the total amount of purse money that is projeted to be distributed doesnt mean that this track has made any false claims. Because you dont understand the way the system works doesnt make it wrong.

When figuring the purses Monmouth determined that over the course of the meet they knew that X amount was going to be alloted for stakes races. That number is almost surely going to be hit unless a stake was cancelled due to lack of entries which is highly unlikely. Then they took into consideration the Jersey bred races and figured in the number of races and hence purses that they are contractually bound to run. Then they determine the amount of each specific claiming, maiden and allowance races that they will write which will finish off their projections. While an exact number is hard to achieve they would have a pretty good idea of how much they would be paying out. Ok now we get to reality. Perhaps some of the allowance races (high purse) do not fill and are replaced by a greater number of races like those which were found on yesterdays card(lower purse)? All of a sudden the projections that they made arent going to reach the million dollar mark because those races carry a much smaller purse than the scheduled but not filled allowance races. Was it the tracks intent to fill those races and give away the alloted money? Of course. Do they supply the horses for those races that didnt fill? Of course not. Assuming that all the allowances races especially the money allowances and higher classes would all fill all the time is contrary to what is happening at all tracks. It is hardly an exact science writing races and filling cards especially the way the horses are raced nowdays.

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 661659)

Just noticed that there's maybe $450,000 or so in purses at Monmouth today. $850,000 Saturday. $764,000 Sunday.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662012)

again no one is suggesting 1 million a day. they arent going to come close to averaging that. instead of just admitting you were wrong, you brush it off by saying "i really dont care" which is a bs copout. i already told you i was being sarcastic with the false advertising comment. you can cling to the unimportant stuff, while trying to excuse the crux of this thread but it doesnt change what is really happening. they were never going to be giving out 50 million in 50 days. never.

like i said, it will be interesting to revisit this thread after the meet. im sure you still wont care then either, after being proven wrong. again.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 662017)

Let me ask you a question, Chuck.....if you should ever train a horse that loses the KY Derby by a nose will you tell people you trained a KY Derby winner?

Yes, I know, you would ( and should ) be ecstatic....but you would also be lying if you said you trained a Derby winner. It's a game of inches.

Originally Posted by pba1817 (Post 662022)

But your weren't being sarcastic, you were serious and got regulated by Cannon Shell.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662016)

Let me ask you a question GG. How close to $50 million do they have to give out for you not to declare that they never intended to give out the $50 million? $45 mill? $48mill? $49,999,999?

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662027)

of course if it is 49 million or close to that its close enough. but when the number is closer to 45 million i will be waiting for the excuses.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662026)

regulated? you got regulated on page 2 of this thread.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662025)

Apples and oranges. Purse payments are typically a fluid situation based on handle. That is why the are raised or lowered during a meet. This situation is obviously different but it is crazy to think that purse accounts aren't always either under or overpaid. As I said I dont have any idea of what the status of the purse account at Monmouth is. But unless someone has information that they are not sharing I have no reason to believe that they wont be pretty close to paying that amount or transfering some to the boost the fall meet.

Originally Posted by TitanSooner (Post 662028)

May I ask.. why are you so worried about this?

Originally Posted by TitanSooner (Post 662028)

May I ask.. why are you so worried about this?

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662027)

of course if it is 49 million or close to that its close enough. but when the number is closer to 45 million i will be waiting for the excuses.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662036)

So if they are 10% underpaid you are expecting a scandal or something? LOl

AP was underpaid far more than (%wise) that last season. Thankfully I may add because it kept them from slashing the purses there this year.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662036)

So if they are 10% underpaid you are expecting a scandal or something? LOl

AP was underpaid far more than (%wise) that last season. Thankfully I may add because it kept them from slashing the purses there this year.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 662030)

The problem with this argument, and you know this, is that this is a very finite and specific meet/situation, and moving the money to the second meet doesn't matter. In fact, what they are doing is saving money so there can be a second meet, or at least one that isn't skeletal. Having more money for that meet, but failing to give away the average in this one, doesn't change things.

The other thing your argument ignores is that you parse the money out in the manner you suggest, which obviously I understand and agree in theory with what you are saying, when your results will allow you to increase purses later. Well, while the handle numbers have been phenomenally good, and surely way better than I expected, they still don't justify these purse levels, even with the subsidy, so how exactly can that translate into raising purses later in this 50 day session....or at least enough to meet the announced average?

Once again, so that it is clear, this Monmouth meeting has been a great success from a fan's perspective, and that is a great thing. Nobody can, or should, argue with that. However, that doesn't preclude having some realistic discussions about other facets of the plan. In fact, this should be especially important in this example given how many people claim this is a blueprint for a direction racing could, should, or must be not only exploring but perhaps heading towards. Looking at all parts, and honestly seeing how well they work, is the only way to reach intelligent and successful conclusions.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 662039)

AP didn't advertise something....something that is being inaccurately repeated ad finitum.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662042)

i dont remember saying anything about a scandal at all and what arlington did last year is apples and oranges. if magna promised something important like purses and then came 10% away from delivering it, there would be discussion about it. if cdi did it, there would be discussion. if nyra did it, there would be discussion.

so why the rush to hush up anyone trying to discuss this?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662047)

I think that the advertising thing is completely overblow here. If they cant fill some of the higher purse races what are they supposed to do with the extra money?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662051)

No this isnt apples and oranges. What you seemingly dont understand is that yes magna and CDI and NYRA and every other tack has overpaid and underpaid purses every meet. 10% is not a gross underpayment and that money is still due to the horseman. It isnt like tracks can underpay purses and just keep the money (though John Brunetti has tried)

Hell CDI had a contract with the horseman concerning sponsorship money (Yum) and they didnt pay the purse account what was owed for almost 2 years passed and only then after they were sued by the HBPA.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 662049)

No particular argument with that Chuck.

The beauty of this is that it actually does allow not just discussion, but some tangible results to work with, and what I find mind boggling is the defensive anger seen in this thread from some that can't seem to bear any post concerning Monmouth that isn't a congratulatory message. There is plenty of good about this meeting...but that doesn't preclude some from questioning certain things. We all learn from criticism.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 662052)

Advertising is a euphamism. The fact is that this exclamation has, and is, repeated over and over again....yet it doesn't appear to be true. No, this is not the biggest deal in the world, and it doesn't change the fact that the betting public has reacted very favorably to their meet....but it also doesn't make people that point it out either wrong or evil.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662057)

Hey its horseracing where the Breeders Cup mile has been held at 1 1/16th. A million a day has a better ring to it than $948,943.35 a day does.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662051)

No this isnt apples and oranges. What you seemingly dont understand is that yes magna and CDI and NYRA and every other tack has overpaid and underpaid purses every meet. 10% is not a gross underpayment and that money is still due to the horseman. It isnt like tracks can underpay purses and just keep the money (though John Brunetti has tried)

Hell CDI had a contract with the horseman concerning sponsorship money (Yum) and they didnt pay the purse account what was owed for almost 2 years passed and only then after they were sued by the HBPA.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 662064)

you keep wanting to move the discussion away from what i am saying in an attempt to act like i dont understand something. i never said this hasnt happened at other meets. im just saying why isnt it up for discussion now?

i cant wait until labor day. maybe i will "get it" by then.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 662055)

What I have heard from industry sources that isnt being talked about in public is the negative effect that Monmouth is having on the other meets handle.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 661759)

I will try to make it even more painful.

How come baseball players who bat .250 don't go 1-for-4 every single game?

Shouldn't a .334 hitter be on like an infinity game hitting streaks as long as he gets 3 at bats per game?