Babe Ruth was a pitcher first then was a position player. He didnt do them at the same time. In 1919 he pitched for 1/2 the year before becoming a position player for good. Rick Ankiel has done the same thing albeit with much less success. Of all the sports baseball is by far the closest to the same games as the years go by.

I think I made myself clear in what way you backpedaled. You wanted to compare Zenyatta and Personal Ensign earlier today ("it was a ploy") and now you don't.

To justify your backpedal you say that Zenyatta has yet to finish her career and therefore we should wait to compare her with Personal Ensign.

3 times since that post you have posted "what if" scenarios of her winning the 2010 BC Classic.

If you were as consistent as Zenyatta is we wouldn't need to keep going over this.

As for the "sanctity of the opinion" BS, if I thought your opinion should be erased I'd just become a moderator.

If it makes you feel any better ... I'd probably take Banshee Breeze and the points.



She always fired ... and even her 3 defeats at the end were ok. She got beat giving Beautiful Pleasure 11 pounds at 10 furlongs in slop for the first one - Keeper Hill rode a good rail at Keeneland while BB was wide in the Spinster loss - the BC Distaff loss at Gulfstream wasn't bad either.

it is pretty accurate i think. why do you think these conversations are going on on every horse racing message board on the net?

THanks for posting this, I tryed 2 LOL.
Im kinda suprised a throwback like Serling would say Rachel and Z would have destroyed this one... I have a list of about 15 more just in the last 15 years... A thread is coming tomorrow.

was banshee breeze that much better than keeper hill? she was more consistent, but when both were on their game i dont think much separated them.

The narrative that people think Zenyatta IS the best horse ever, or even the best female ever is not accurate in totality. Yet that is the perception of anyone that supports Zenyatta.

I would put her in the group, but its a pretty good field.

its not perception. its reality. not everyone, but definitely more than you are portraying. listen to what people have said and what they write.

i would put her in the group as well. just not near the top. not yet.

me neither, she needs to win a couple more classics, or maybe next year we can let her slide back to the distaff.

so much for the not accurate part.

WAY better than Keeper Hill!!

You cant help yourself, you would argue anything I say, even if you agreed w/ me

I am wondering what the criteria is to get her into the class of say an Azeri or Personal Ensign, its often inferred she needs to do more, I am just wondering exactly what.

careerwise, sure. and banshee breeze was a hell of a lot more consistent. she always showed up as you said. im just saying when they met, a neck separated them in the cca oaks and kentucky oaks. keeper hill finished in front of her in the mother goose and spinster. behind her in the personal ensign and bc distaff.

i just dont think they were that far off of each other when keeper hill was on her game. banshee breeze was always on her game.

it has nothing to do with you at all.

Historically speaking, Banshee Breeze and Keeper Hill were both not much.

says who? you, gg and serling
??
the pps dont lie

and really, this is where these issues arise.a few posts back you said you would put her in the group. i agreed, just not at the top, not yet at least. so i get this condescending post.

its obvious what she needs to do. race more against males. maybe even travel a bit, although most would be happy with just one of the two. shes probably better than azeri, but she has a long way to go to be at the top of the rest and considering she has maybe 3 more races at most, she probably wont unless she runs a huge race at churchill. if she makes it which i place at 50/50 right now.

i guess if we would have a chance to see more of zenyatta away from the safety net it would be easier to determine this kind of stuff.

says me. i yam what i yam.

that being said, you'd need to have a better understanding of things to, well, understand why she is overrated.

for starters, most of her career was spent running against pretty mediocre fillies, high figs or not.

she also seemed to find ways to lose in the really big races she was in. Beautiful Pleasure was a really good mare, but some of these others she lost to, or struggled to beat, they left alot to be desired.

she was visually speaking, not that impressive a horse. watching her, i always felt like i was watching a plodder that was picking off tired horses that had nothing left.

i never did understand the high figs she got, as she almost always ran slow times, with slow closing fractions coming after decent to moderate paces. certainly not every time, but in the first half of her career, she screamed plodder to me.

finally, there was just this intangible quality about her that's hard to convey in a post. back in those days, i was no lover of eastern racing, but there were plenty of horses in the east that i was a big fan of. I say this, because i had the utmost confidence that she'd lose the Oaks, and both appearances in the distaff, and it had nothing to do with me being a biased fan of california racing.

the fact that a pretty mediocre keeper hill found ways to beat her also confirmed to me that she was overrated, and that her figs were fishy.

other than all that, maybe you should go watch a few races of hers.

By the way Joseph, did you really look at the pps for Keeper Hill?

She really wasn't that much.

I'm not going to make a case for her as an all-timer or anything, but I disagree on a couple of your points. As far as the competition goes, Escena, Glitter Woman, Jersey Girl, Heritage Of Gold, Sister Act, and Manistique were all Grade 1 winners and Lu Ravi and Silent Eskimo were millionaires, so I wouldn't look too down on them.

As far as the plodder status, at least as a 3yo, I thought she had a pretty good turn of foot and certainly had stamina to go along with it. Don't really recall her 4yo races that much.

I liked her a lot in the KY Oaks. Her modest 3rd in the Ashland following a bust out win in the Bonnie Miss was a near carbon copy of the way Unbridled ran for Carl Nafzger in the Blue Grass prior to his Derby win. Unfortunately, IIRC, Jerry Bailey moved much too soon on her in the Oaks and got tagged near the line by a late running Keeper Hill (who I would label as the plodder above all else).

From the summer of their 3yo filly season on ... Banshee Breeze was vastly superior in every way.

The Spinster result was all about Keeneland's track bias. Banshee Breeze was 4 wide on both turns over a rail favoring race track .. Keeper Hill slipped up the rail and I believe was rail, rail on both turns ... Frankel praising it as one of the best rides.

Keeper Hill might be a 3 time Grade 1 winner .. but I think it's a huge insult to Banshee Breeze to say they had the same ability.

i said banshree breeze was a better horse. she was clearly the more consistent horse and accomlished a hell of a lot more on track than keeper hill. however, when they met on the racetrack, for whatever cicumstances there wasnt a lot separating them. and at keeper hill's best, she could beat banshhe breeze and did, twice. that is what i am saying, which leads me to think banshee breeze would have little to no shot vs zenyatta or rachel alexandra.

if you said inside infromation i might agree.

Wasn't Banshee Breeze's performance in the Apple Blossom in '99 more impressive than either of Zenyatta's trips there?
Of course, that doesn't have to mean your statement is incorrect, but Zenyatta doesn't exactly "drown" very many horses, and I think Banshee Breeze might be a whole lot better than some horses Zenyatta hasn't beaten by much.

To me, she also seems better than a couple of horses that beat RA this year. I'm not saying I would bet Banshee Breeze over those two, but it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to compare her on even terms with those two. Does it?.

In reality, I posted according to the Crist blog that she had raced only once out of N.Y, go back and look. That started the dialogue for obvious reasons since one of Zenyatta's criticisms is she doesn't ship often enough, all the rest of the stuff came from your imaginary mind. I also pointed out wouldn't it be fairer to judge Zenyatta as a whole after this year, a point you agreed with me. If that is a backpedal in your mind, I'm sorry I can't help you.

I thought I read somewhere he was slowly converted from pitcher to outfield and may have played both at one time, regardless this is an interesting point, was Roger Clemons a better pitcher Pre-HGH or Post-HGH?

Clemens was a pretty awesome pitcher in the 80's. Whether that was performance enhanced or not is anyone's guess.

He was, but he was even more awesome after he bulked up. Plus I doubt he could pitch as long as he did without the help...

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

I agree, cheaters playing cheaters. That is why I say the game has evolved, shortstops rarely ever hit for power prior to Robin Yount doing it when he went on the weight thing. Ruth, Maris, Aaron were great when they played in their era but had they played without the "help" in this steriods era, I have a hard time buying that they would have been equally as good in today's game.

face better horses not all in cali..take on the boys more ect.

ill give her this drugs she raced all over vs anyone

It's too bad Zenyatta will never get to face the monsters that Azeri had to face. ;)

The thing I remember Keeper Hill for is how she's likely the answer to a trivia question.

Wow … all these posts and not one mention of the most remarkable thing on Crist's list

Not only was she a champion tennis player … but Chris Evert was fast enough to earn over $600k racing against thoroughbreds.

Amazing stuff :D

One needed "several screws" in her ankle after two starts while the other has been pretty much sound as a bell after 17?


By the way, upon further review of PE's Whitney … G looks to have been beyond his scope going nine … and thus quite vulnerable … and the show horse was like a hundred years old that year … and basically just a G3-type Aqueduct runner at that point.

Gulch won the Wood Memorial.

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

Not to mention the fact that he could carry his speed ten panels against the best comp.

Jury still very much out for QR on that one…

Watch yourself, it is blasphemy to compare any horse to Personal Ensign on this board.