Ummm ... Pillow ... or should I call you Mr. Pants? ...

... in any case ... I think you missed the point of my post ... by about two furlongs. Please read it again ... and then report back here.

Thanks.

Very true ...

... this is a below-average year for older horse ... but there have been many worse.

So far ... I give them a 3 on a scale of 10.

Yeah the money is high up there but also are the chances of coming away with injury. How many horse's have done as good as Lava Man here of late out West? Even the sprinters from out West have come to the East coast to run to stay healthy.

winning the Big Cap, HW Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic puts him close to lock status....Invasor would need to win the Woodward or JCGC and the BCC to overtake him (IMO)...Bernardini the Travers and BCC

winning the Big Cap, HW Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic have to put him close to "lock" status, Invasor would need to win the Woodward/or JCGC and the BCC, or Bernardini would need to win the Traver's and the BCC to overtake LM (IMO)

Here's the question I have ... and it's always the same one ... so by now you're all used to it ...

If it's so easy to win six straight graded stakes races in California ... how come no one else has done it?

The only thing that puts a "lock" on a championship ...

... is when the top horses meet each other several times ... and one of them wins consistently.

Otherwise ... it's just a matter of opinion.

Invasor and Bernardini are the ONLY two horses with a shot
how many horses in history have swept those 3 G1 handicaps in one year?
opinion? that's what it is in VOTING
what if Suave wins the BCC? who you voting for?
it's not who the horse has beaten, it's the races he's won
especially in a year without a true handicap superstar
I'll not say it's a lock, but it's pretty darn close

Its not who they beat but what races they have won? Since when?
So suppose a horse swept three huge purse races while beating noone of any real value? Just like lava man!!!! That makes him HOY? Well lets see what happens when he comes east.

Everyone is overracting on both sides of this argument. To call Lava Man a cheap handicapper or consider him only able to contend in California is ridiculous. On the other hand, we aren't looking at Ghostzapper here. Today was impressive, not his best, but impressive. He dueled through honest fractions and did what he needed. His success later in the year may depend on how the races set up. If there isn't a real speed horse to hook him at Churchill, I'd take him over what I have seen so far.

Ummm ... have you ever hear of the phrase "azz-backwards"?

My theory is he doesn't have to go east
let someone else do the dirty work
but...in most years yes, you're right, he hasn't done enough
this year however, winning those races certainly puts him #1
because there's not a horse out there with a resume who comes close
at least not in the Classic division

Ummm ... like ... how many threads are we going to have on the same subject?

Haven't you noticed that there are 14 of these things on the board already?

East Coast bias...?
I'm in the mid-west so I can remain objective
don't kill the messanger
I didnt make the races he's won Grade 1's

Have to disagree with Mike here. Good Reward is much better than people think. His race a few back got a similar figure to English Channel with massive ground loss taken into account. That being said his dirt form was hidden and while he isn't the East's best, he beat some good freakin horses today. And he sure looked like a washed out mess going into the gate to do it. Plus the track played slower than usual today. The figure won't be huge, but it won't be nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

oracle you have a message

The point of racing is to win races and to make money. The two sort of go hand in hand. Who cares where hes raced, who cares who he races against, who cares who is better, who cares about anything when it comes to Lava Man. Lava Man is a gelding so it doesnt matter. All that matters is the horse wins when he goes to the gate. He makes money for the connections. Who cares if he gets beat by an East Coast horse or from a horse in Europe. Point is that the horse wins and makes money. Enough said.

This is clearly and East coast west Coast thing. Lava Man may not ship well, his owner may have nothing to do with it. Some horses just dont do well being moved around the country or world. Thats just a fact. There are plenty of Euros that do not come over here even if the purse money is big because the horses dont even change countries well in Europe. And they are very good horses.

And all these Invasor, Bernadini will beat him... from the same folks that gave us Flower Alley. I did not see his name come up. Its spitefulness and jealousy.

Lava man did not look comfortable to me the first part of the race at all. Way too much tugging. I thought for sure he had it. Then he settled down around the first turn and began to run comfortably on the back stretch. Then he had some trouble again on the turn home and still won the friggin race. Watch the race again. I thought some of you guys were experts at watching races. Tell me Im wrong. It was not an easy run for the horse and he won easily. Fck the times. Damn fine animal. Gets the job done even when he is not in perfect form.

Yeah, wait till Lava Man runs into a real Grade 1 horse like Flower Alley, that horse will show him what heart is about! :rolleyes:

Lava Mans probably like another Cal bred of recent memory, Tiznow, a horse who went East twice and got whipped by those great horses out there. :D

Maybe he can borrow Todd Pletchers or Rick Dutrows.

And Saint Liam got slapped around in California last year... but thats right, the East Coast horses always have a built in excuse, the tracks, blah blah blah. Lava Man had a hard campaign when he ran in New York last year, see he actually races, not like those coddled babies in the barn like that pea-hearted pansy Flower Alley, who of course was givien a pass for his gutless reality check last race. Look Lava Man may not be the best horse in the country right now, I think Bernardini is a potential monster, Invasor looks good as well, but how people can sit here and through water in Lava Mans face after what he has accomplished this year is insane, if he waa an East Coast horse everyone would be handing him the Eclipse, but Lava Man only gets tomatoes thrown at him. I think at this point in time right now, he deserves to be consided the top enchilada, simply put NO HORSE has done as much as he has!!!!!

In his two outside Cali, he was not allowed to use bute (NY and Japan). KY allows it if I am not mistaken. Could be the difference maker.

I don't know the medication rules in Japan but I know you are allowed to use bute in New York. New york has pretty much the same rules as California and Kentucky. In all three states bute is legal as long as it is given the day before the race.

I consider Lava Man's poor race in the JC Gold Cup last year to be the direct result of his race in the Pacific Classic in his previous start. In case you have forgotten, in last year's PacClas, Lava Man attended a wickedly fast pace, pushed by a first class speed horse named Surf Cat. His great heart wouldn't let him quit the way Surf Cat did, so he finished within a length of the winner Borrego, still in there trying. He used up all his reserves and became so exhausted he had to be vanned off of the track. A horse doesn't come back as easily or as quickly from that kind of draining effort as from a normal race and it showed in New York. And if you paid attention to such things you would know about his difficulties in Japan, too, where he came out of the race with bloody feet.

I should also add, that not every horse that runs well on 8f and 9f tracks takes to Belmont; just look at Teammate - she absolutely stunk at Belmont, but the return to a smaller track, Saratoga, enabled her to once again be competitive. And it works the other way around, too - Sightseek would have been a champion if she could have transferred her Belmont form ANYWHERE else, but she couldn't. Silver Train is another who is lengths better at Belmont than anywhere else.

What is a 'Grade 1 horse?' Is it a horse who has won a G1 race? Then Giacomo, Perfect Drift, and Good Reward certainly qualify, although the latter's G1 wins were on turf. Additionally, Super Frolic had a close third and fourth (in the BC Classic!) in G1s, Magnum had a close second and fourth in G1s, so only 2 members of the Pacific Classic field had not previously shown good form in G1 races. And all but one of these horses had won at G3 or G2 levels as well; these were not creampuffs.

And as to Sun King..., He has just finished second by a nose or so in two consecutive G1 races, the Whitney and the Met Mile. As a 2yo he was third in the BC Juvie and the Champagne, both G1s, and at 3 was second in the Haskell and third in the JC Gold Cup, both G1s. Yes, he has been beaten badly in a few of G1s as well, but horses are not machines (except Lava Man this year?) and this is a horse who needs a pace set-up to run his race. Sun King is a decent sort of horse who has been competitive at the G1 level since he was 2, not some jumped up allowance horse, like, say, Mayan King or Rathor.

My only regret is that Surf Cat was hurt. Would have been a joy to watch him stop and offer Lava Man some milk and cookies as he was flying by Lava Man heading for home:D :D

i just want one question answered...is ky considered east coast??? shouldn't it be considered midwest? if not, why not??

ok, that's 3 questions....but the other two are follow-ups to my one question!

No, we are the epicenter. Sitting in the middle and judging both East and West Coast horses.

Yes I saw it and am amazed that they were able to get his foot problems taken care of and get him back in form. Don't be blind, this horse had problems after last years Pacific Classic.

That's a very good point, maybe he did not care for Belmont. Churchill can be a paved highway and the California horses seem to take to it pretty well, it's something to consider...

Knock Lava all ya want

I know all of ya would love to be a part of this action in regards to ownership of Lava, etc.. Horse is making some money, winning some Grade 1's, is it not? Thank you have a nice day.

Stupid thing to say. Noone argues any of what you just said, I myself have said the same thing. But the argument on this thread that hes HOY and can beat horses when shipped out of Cali is another story. If you have the guts, wanna make a bet on how he fares when shipped out of Cali? I'll give you post time odds when he runs, plus one point. If you feel so strongly about this you should be raring to go.

No, I simply am pointing out the obvious.

No, I will not take you up on that bet either. Thanks anyway.

So then what was the point of the post? Pointing out the obvious is fine but to represent those who doubt his success if shipped away from Cali as "haters" is not at all fair. I personally think hes one hell of a great story. A claim that makes all that loot and tries so damn hard. I love the horse and his story. But a perusal of what he has beaten in that stretch is basically a whos who of horses who get knocked for hanging, and horses who just aren't very good. I don't find it to be "hating" if someone questions his competition and how much home field advantage plays into things. hes a gelding, so there is no residual value in the shed. They have managed him to PERFECTION by maximizing his earning value in spots worth big cash at home. They deserve incredible kudos for this. Its what you do with a gelding. But I draw the line with those who say he leaves California and wins a race agaisnt grade one company this fall. Thats not gonna happen.

Breeder's Cup
 

I'm pretty neutral on the EAST vs WEST thing, but it does seem convenient that the Easters forget how many of their horses won the last time the BC was in California. Answer: zero. Cajun Beat came from Kentucky and he was the closest thing to an East coast horse winning.

is ky considered east coast?
actually the majority of KY is on EST

shouldn't it be considered midwest?
well, the University of KY plays in the Southeastern Conference
U of L in the Big East

if not, why not?
hmm, geography I suppose

Hey, Miss Snotnose ...

Why don't you just stick to copying and pasting reams of obscure and irrelevant data that your geek acolytes forward to you?

You regurgitate more wasteful material than a backed-up sewer ... but you do it very well ... so stick to that ... and stop revealing your ignorance on every other subject.

Coming from the King of ignorance, this post is hilarious. You contribute nothing but ill-witted rubbish to every thread you post on, but carry on. ;)