So what is your beef? I am not the bad guy, they are.

Sorry about that Chuck -- not really what I meant. I was not inferring to a positive you might get vs. a pattern of abuse. On that, I agree with you.

What I meant was more that the "where there's smoke, there's fire" thing can happen to you as it has others. You could pick up a new owner who knows how to play the game and lets you spot horses aggressively. Compoung that with claiming a few from a few 3% trainers who have given up on a horse or missed something huge, now you move those up. Now you get another owner, and another. Things get rolling. Buy one for the owner and win a stake or two. Do well at a few high profile meets. All of a sudden people are talking about Chuck Simon who may never have had a positive test ever before -- and now they are saying where there's smoke there's fire.

Regardless, and again I agree, I do think there are very few guys who have "suspicious" reputations that are not deserved. Well deserved? Sure there are some which certainly are well deserved, and there are a few that I think are not, but I do agree.

Eric

Their mom and dads?

They were all adopted.

I never said you didn't know anything just not everything. If you can suggest that Dutrow isn't an outstanding trainer then you certainly don't know much about him or his capabilities. Lot's of people work in the industry. lots of us have all have the same type contacts as yourself. While we all KNOW you work in the industry it doesn't mean you are the industry.

Good luck racing in the wild wild west (Philly Park). I will be rooting for you always do why wouldnt I? Bring your A vet because when slot dollars are on the table lots of people are trying to gain every edge to get them. That doesn't necessarily mean they are cheating just means they are making there horses as fast as possible within the rules.
You are entitled to your opinion unfortunately because you work in the industry doesnt mean it is always correct. Nor does it mean you shouldnt be open to others.

I understand where you are coming from. There will never be absolute certainty. But many of the people we refer to are guilty, are known within the industry as being guilty yet they hide behind the standard excuses. And the real shame is that many of them walk around with a smuggness because they are using what isnt being tested for and they know it. The really sad thing is that the vast majority of the trainers do play by the rules.

Why wouldnt you use a drug that improves your horses performance and is LEGAL, if it doesn't endanger the welfare of the animal?

With all due respect Freddy what exactly do you know about who or what i may know? you think Philly Park is the wild west? I am a vet of the yonkers/Roosevelt wars. That was the wild west. These guys are just cheaters.

Like what?

Ding ding ding. Most of the good stuff originated in harness racing.

You told Eric that guys are running horses on stuff that isnt being tested for? Well if it isnt illegal and it works and makes your horse faster because the horse feels better..........AND?

Just because they dont have a test for something doesnt mean that it isnt illegal. Despite what all your sources tell you. In KY any non-naturally occuring substance that isnt on the approved list is considered illegal. The idea behind the rule is in theory they are going to go back and retest the old samples and using newly found drugs and nail the trainers under a blanket rule. Of course the chance of frozen samples being retested are slim at best.

So I didnt see MR AAA or know what was going on in harness racing.. I spent twice as much time as you at harness tracks and the back stretchs I lived harness racing from the time I was 10 for 15 years I did nothing but hang out with the biggest FN crooks in the business. I was betting for Rene Poulin when I was 18 years old, .. You really do think it's all about you its amazing.

then what is your excuse for not seemingly having a clue about what is really going on? How can anyone know if Dutrow is a good horseman without taking an edge since he has ALWAYS took an edge?

Would Barry Bonds have hit 70 HR's without the clear? He was never "officially" sanctioned so should we believe it was just his natural talent and good genes that allowed him to carry on into his 40's? the difference is we have a pretty good idea of barry's skill sets PRIOR to Balco. We dont have such a period with Dutrow do we? And why do his horses do better when he isnt around or in touch?

Who races in KY other then Keeneland who would cheat at CD who would race at CD? If Ken McPeek is willing to win every race at Keeneland because he knows there is a drug that helps his horses FEEL better and run faster and the drug is NOT illegal that makes him a cheater? Why because in 2016 it will be illegal..Your serious right?? Good Luck Chuck hope you get a Rachel type soon.

So let me get this right there are a bunch of meds out there that work really well, make your stock feel better, doesnt endanger there lives, and is perfectly legal currently because they arent testing for it and havent declared it illegal yet you wont use it because they may declare it illegal in 2019.. I use organic milk as well..lol

No Freddy, it is illegal now! It doesnt become illegal when they discover it.

If you cheat on your wife but dont get caught for awhile does that mean you werent really cheating on her?

So Dutrow's only success has come from meds. LOL stop now its getting embarassing.. I guess Kiaran, Pletcher Assmussen who else should we toss in the nothing without a needle pile?

That was you? We used to follow some guy up to the windows we thought was betting for Poulin at the Meadowlands.

Well they arent testing for it and are hiding behide ANYTHING that isnt NATURALLY OCCURRING.. get off the soap box nothing in a horse is natural..Whats so natural about gastroguard or anyfriggin daily friigin meds?

What period of their training careers were they not using an edge? No one is saying that they are idiots. But trying to disregard the stain of drugs on these guys reputations makes it hard for some of us to declare them the geniuses that you seem to want to annoint them as.

If you want to crown em, crown their asses

They are allowed, that is the difference. You, freddy, are one of the problems in this sport,game,business or whatever you want to call it. You want to disregard the intent by saying they just want to win as though breaking the rules is acceptable. Or you want to gloss over the records of past abuse. or you want to lump all meds in one big basket. You my friend are the voice of a many owners who use these excuses to justify hiring a guy with a poor track record. And THAT is the greatest obstacle this sport, game business has in cleaning up its act.

I am awaiting your private reply.

sent

chuck i know you kidded me about this in the past , but gander mentioned it earlier in the thread

just how does lind rice go from winning a major meet to not being competitive at all at bel or aqu so far , are the horses simply tired . she wasn't just winning turf sprints at sar was she?

I have no idea gales. Let it go man

i think it's always serious when a trainer gets caught. but since a split sample has yet to be tested, maybe he's getting a break til they know for sure?

the issue isn't with the cheating-it's the lack of real punishment. why else would people keep pushing? they don't think they'd get caught, but if they do, it's a 'vacation'. for others, it's a lot of vacations!

fair eneough

Know what the issue is with me? They don't even seem to be able to figure out how to cheat "well" - where there's a real benefit! :D

You got a thing for LR dont you?

It isnt even the time. It is not losing business and in the most perverse case, actually gaining business while suspended. hell if you gave guys no days but they lost 25% of their horses for every serious positive you'd see a different attitude towards violations.

not really , chuck i really had a thing for diane nelson thou if u really want to know

who would have thought!!!!!!!

Didn't you have a connection with him with Divine Park? Makes one think there may be a laundry list of Barry Bond's that ran for that stable...

No it's not. He answered me.

Some of this stuff makes me laugh - just because they throw something into a horse doesn't mean it does what they want or hope.

This thread is the highway. I am the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7dx7efwYPA

This is a serious discussion. Levity is not allowed.

:p