Holy Bull passed the BC as a 3YO. If I remember correctly, he was not BC-nominated and Jimmy Croll wasn't going to pay the supplement. He was hurt in the Donn as a 4YO.

I'll never understand how he got HOY. That year, the top older males in the country were, in no order:

Candy Ride
Medaglia d'Oro
Pleasantly Perfect
Congaree
Milwaukee Brew
Mineshaft
Perfect Drift

Mineshaft only faced one of the others (Perfect Drift) and he only faced him once. And he lost.

That's exactly the way it went.

I've spoken with Frankel about Sightseek and you really can't believe how much admiration and love he had for her so I can understand that he'd want to end her career on a brilliant note than possibly recreate her lack of efforts in California. That kind of approach isn't going to win Eclipse awards, but he did what he thought was right for such a wonderful horse.

Obviously he would have been exposed at SA in the Classic that yr, I never really thought he was anything special. I'm sure some will disagree but his sire career is matching Point Given's to this point, both never participated in the BC. Coincidence...You make the call...

Yeah, I know he loved her but he still wasn't honest about things. He had said plenty of times that he wanted to skip the BC with her because of the makeup of the track. I can respect that. If you think it's a situation that won't allow her to do her best, don't put her in it. But what bothered me was how at the end, he started saying he would run her there but then he ran her in the Beldame. Running her in the Beldame wasn't the problem. It was saying afterwards that before the race, he knew she only had one more race in here. Well, if you knew that, then why go in the Beldame instead of the BC? All of this wasn't that big a deal but for me, it just came off disingenious (sp) all of his talk about really considering the BC. Same feeling I got with Mineshaft.

I never pay any attention to what a horse does after they retire from the track. To me, it has no bearing whatsover on what kind of horse they were.

He had a spot on the bottom of his cannon bone. No way to determine exactly when it occured, probably a combo of things. He had really bad feet.

In some cases it has no bearing, but Medaglia D'oro ran the best race in the Classic that year duelling Congaree who was no slouch through testing fractions to only miss to P Perfect who was a very formidable horse when he was on his game. If we use this race as a snapshot, it wouldn't be a stretch to notice who has become the most prolific sire of the bunch.

Because you knew she would absolutely demolish everyone - why have that one last effort be a questionable one?

Dude The horse had a totally legit injury. I am vouching for it personally. Call me a liar if you'd like but it was legit.

Neither would I

He wasnt going to pay but he was very sore. If you saw him train that Winter you would have thought he was a 10 claimer.

Thank you. Love the stones that people throw at Mineshaft. Fact is, he was the one who was ducked all along that year. And his loss to Perfect Drift in the SF was the fastest race ever run up to that point on Thorograph for a trainer in Howard I have the utmost respect for and believe is clean.

That was a horrific ride by Albarado I believe.

I don't think that disagreeing with you is calling you a liar. You know what you know and I know what I think. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. Well, let me amend that some. I do believe that he had physical issues that were present. But the knee stuff was there several races before the last one and they knew it and said it. That's why they said ahead of time that he would not be running in the Classic. Then they all of a sudden start saying he will run in the Classic and then bow out due to an injury......that they said he had been running with all along. What I'm saying is not that I don't think he had it but that it's something they could have dealt with because they had been dealing with it.

You are basing your theory on hypothetical things reported in the media. I am basing it on what I actually saw with my own eyes, heard with my own ears and based upon my own experience with similar injuries. It really doesnt matter what we think but you are wrong to assume that this wasnt a totally legitimate decision based on a real injury. It was.

Albarado certainly didn't do him any favors in that race and I don't think it was a bad effort by Mineshaft at all. I think Randall makes a good point about him being ducked. When you run in races like the JCGC and the Woodward and Foster, you can't be accused of ducking anyone. BUT.......BUT.........that doesn't change the fact and the fact is that all of the others faced each other and most of them did so several times and the fact is that Mineshaft only faced one of the others that would be considered in the top seven and bad ride or not, he lost his only matchup with an elite horse that year.

Why then, was he able to run in the Woodward and the JCGC with the chips but couldn't run in the BC?

The horse had a possible stress fracture. The chips werent the only issues he had

I wouldn't say running against the unbeaten Candy Ride or running against Medaglia D'oro as these 2 met in Pacific Classic that year is an accurate illustration of anyone being scared of anyone nevermind Mineshaft. Have you seen that race? It was simply one of the most impressive Pacific Classic's ever. Ducking Mineshaft? That's hilarious...

The sad thing is that in a few short years we have gone from talking about some pretty good older horses ducking other to Dry Martini, Bullsbay and Macho Again.

:tro:

I know it's almost too funny...

Not just the overwhelming Asmussen on synthetics issue ... but her style could not possibly be suited any worse for any kind of distance/surface combo than a 10 furlong race on that Santa Anita pro ride.

Hystericalady was without question the best two-turn dirt female last year. She was 0-for-6 lifetime on synthetics, squandered several dream trips over it, and even once sunk bridgejumpers on it.

Here's the dirt route form she had in her PP's going into the Distaff ...





As you can see, she has the same identical style as RA. Excellent natural speed - and a dominant burst between the quarter pole and eigth pole that breaks open races. In the only loss, a narrow defeat in the BC Distaff, she was open lengths best while four to five wide both turns on a hot pace and just missing to a dream trip winner.

Fabulous Strike .. same thing .. excellent speed but his dominant section has always been from the quarter pole to the eigth pole. It's Munnings best part of a race as well. Those two disgraced themselves in last years BC and won't be going back.

Look at Past the Point, speed horse with dominance through that section on dirt .. can't hit the board at Golden Gate on synthetic.

It's obviously not just stakes horses with that style who mostly struggle bad on syn .. it's all types.

It's different kind of racing. If Curlin's in 8th place while 9 lengths off of 47.60 and 1:11.60 dirt fractions .. he might finish 4th .. but he's losing to 3 horses positioned WELL in front of him. He's not having 3 horses blow by him in the stretch while finishing totally empty.


Because of the overwhelming Asmussen thing, I'd be dead against RA in that race if her style suited the track and distance perfectly.

But Rail Trip won his debut wire-to-wire going 6 furlongs over synthetic with a triple digit Beyer... she's got to hook him, she's got to deal with the fact that her best weapon .. an explosive burst off the turn .. almost certainly won't work at all. She's got to deal with the fact that Asmussen horses run light years better on dirt than synthetic.

I haven't bet against her once this year ... but if she runs in the Classic she's a monumental bet against ... and I don't think she goes down like a warrior slugging it out for 3rd with a Tiago type and just getting the worst of that show battle. I think she gets beat 20 or 30 lengths and runs way too bad to be true.

It would be sad enough if we were talking about those horses and bemoaning just how bad the division has become but it's REALLY sad that these horses are being trumped as good horses simply because they won big name races that someone had to win.

Which may mean she is only a great filly on dirt, she's one dimensional. Like it or not Zenyatta has won on both surfaces, Careless Jewel has won on both also or atleast shown she can handle both. In this instance they are superior to her unless she can prove she can win on Poly also. Brilliant probably not as her...but certainly more versatile which to me is also a factor in determining a great horse.

Winning on dirt over Brownie Points makes you superior? :zz:

She's already won on poly at Kee.

If Asmussen trained Zenyatta and Careless Jewel .. the best syn female in the country would probably be those claimers Briecat and Anayabab's Creation.

Maybe Informed Decision can go long?

You want the beyer answer, when in doubt always refer to beyers. They are the determining factor. ;)

I don't understand then, why the reluctance to run at SA unless you don't believe you are not going to win.

They aren't going because they're stubborn and they don't like the surface... they might even cave like they did last year.

They aren't threatening to pass because they've been handicapping the situation and think they won't win.

If they don't go there and surely Zenyatta will not fly in for the Beldame, maybe they will get brave and try the JCGC and Summer Bird. But I'm sure Jess sees the improvement in SB and may be handicapping that situation also.

Rachel Alexandra will beat Summer Bird like a drum.

I don't think so...

Again.

Again I don't think so....

I'll give you credit for standing by your opinion on this despite taking it from all sides.

If the race is at distance and at a Track having a bias that heavily favors RA you are right. Any other Distance / Track it is a moot point becuase RA won't be there. She is being managed not to ever be put in a situation that isn't heavily tilted in her favor. This won't be lost on those voting for HOY.

What horse isn't being campaigned in the best possible place to WIN?