i questioned it in every thread. its just horseplayer common sense. yet, 3 out of 4 public handicappers were picking QR. if you compared form in the pp's how do you come up with 6-5 on this horse? other than the hype. summer bird, the derby, win in the belmont, second in the haskell. hes a birdstone so a mile and a eighth is not even his best distance. now hes going a mile and a quarter at the travers his father just won! meanwhile QR won the amsterdam but had not raced in months now hes going to go to the travers, a distance hes NEVER been. personally , i thought anyone taking those odds with those facts was pushing it just a little bit. there was even one thread that said mine that bird would take dumb money and QR would be a good price. QR was a BAD price and could not even beat hold me back!

i dvr'd the coverage, and fast forwarded thru much of it.

i think rachel had some traffic trouble that day as well-i read something to that effect.

i sounded cautionary notes a few times-but they largely went ignored. people thought he was talented enough to overcome everything in his path-obviously not the case at all. there were more questions then most wanted to ask. pletcher sounded hesitant, but i'd imagine it wasn't his idea to run the horse. they'd have been better served waiting a week and running in the woodward. but i don't know that even a week would have been enough.

the issue here is more of people lacking respect for the belmont winner. summer bird has shown steady progression since breaking his maiden-just five months ago. the fact he lost to rachel is no black spot on his resume.

seeing how the race unfolded, rachel yesterday would have been another been there, done that. quality road was overhyped considering, and she's already defeated summer bird by many lengths. she's climbed the three year old mountain, now it's time for the next challenge- open company. and you might want to read this: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse...o-lightly.aspx before thinking she's taking the easy route.

Secretariat was using the Whitney as his prep for the Travers; it was run 4 days before the relatively minor Jim Dandy that year (4 August vs. 8 August). The Travers was run on 18 August so the plan would have given him two full weeks between races instead of 10 days. But he lost the Whitney and his connections decided he needed some time off before the fall campaign, leaving the Travers to be won by the immortal Annihilate 'Em.

I'm not sure that Riva Ridge ran at all in the late summer/early fall.

The Travers was a classic race long before the Preakness was. Now that the NYRA has emasculated its races for older horses (Woodward down to 9f, the Saratoga BC Cup eliminated, JCGC cut 6f, heck the Whitney even used to be 10f), the Travers is one of the few G1 races left for real racehorses.

So the Woodward is going to have fake race horses?

The over-hyped on Quality Road comes from his odds, which were probably a bit low. Betting against him was an easy 1-2-3 given the setup and scenario though, so the negative reactions are kinda lame in my opinion.

He ran really well and discounting him just because he couldn't win the 10 furlong Travers off a 6 1/2 furlong prep which was his first race since March seems shortsighted. Not to mention he hasn't gone two turns since March either.

Zig,

Im sure I remember you saying that as did others. My point is, I think its pretty lame for Tector to come back on this thread bashing the connections AFTER QR loses the race after not saying anything about it before the race. If someone saw that QR looked bad in the paddock or warming up and were criticizing Evans/Pletcher for not scratching, thats different.

You are full of crap and deliberately distorting posts. All I said is that the people whining about RA not facing QR should shut the hell up because, IF he won, they would likely get another chance to face each other down the road (this was before the enhancement of Beldame). And I had already suggested QR to the Woodward elsewhere.

The Breeder Cup made most G1 races after July preps.. NYRA had nothing to do with it. Unfortunately the demise of G1 racing after July to BC Preps is a by-product of Championship day where champions are sometimes wrongfully crowned. I love the Breeders Cup and think it's wonderful but it certainly F'd up the horse racing environment.

Assuming QR took care of business in the Travers, and RA did so in the Woodward, they could always meet in the JCGC

Did you not post this on page 1 of this thread? Regardless of context, it is what you said. Is this not hypothesizing a win by QR?

Now, i would love for you to post your criticism of the move BEFORE the race. Just one post.

See, its easy to play armchair trainer AFTER the race is run. Right or wrong, I state my opinion before the race and if im wrong so be it. Its easy to criticize a mistake AFTER it is made. I dont want to go back and forth but i just think its pretty lame thats all.

Riva Ridge ran once in August and twice in September, which is exactly what Secretariat did. In neither case did their connections take a "hell or high water" approach to the Travers. Obviously it is great, historical race. But it is not viewed as essential to any 3YO except by NYRA and now the shills at ESPN. For example, neither Spectacular Bid, Unbridled or Spend A Buck ran in it, and all ran elsewhere in the August of their 3YO years. And, of course, all kinds of California horses have skipped it. And I have never before seen some kind of demand that a filly has to run in it. This is all horsecrap of recent vintage (i.e. this year) because NYRA and ESPN wanted RA there, like either of them is owed anything.

Regardless of context...great. Just make up your own context then. Whatever works.

Personally I'd love to see Summer Bird and RA meet in the JCGC later this fall, I think the majority of the public actually believe the result in the Haskell is a true indication that RA is that much better than SB, I know if it were up to Tim Ice he would love a rematch also, if QR or MTB want to be there all the better. I'm dying to find out just how good RA is when she has to face more than 2 opponents dueling themselves into the track as in the Mother Goose at Belmont or having SB waste himself engaging Munnings in the Haskel...Taking gender out of the equation RA is very good racehorse period, but isn't she also hyped to some degree being that she is a filly, her only true tough race when conditions were not ideal for her was the Preakness...and we know how close she came to being beaten there.

Quality Road may very well still be the best 3 year old colt..Yesterdays race did nothing to suggest that he won't be the colt that many preceive him to be. I think Cannon Shell said it best when he suggested that it was the owners decision to run in the Travers not Pletchers. I don't blame the owner, you certainly see his name on millions of dollars of stock year after year and winning the Travers is certainly what any owner dreams about. I do feel that in general more good is done for the game with the LaPenta/Zito approach then the super conservative approach cannon Shell was alluding too. You constantly see Zito/LaPenta throwing there hat in the ring on big days and they have certainly done much more good then they have done bad.

Back to reality, Quality Road connections took a shot, he didn't run poorly, was beat by a colt that was better conditioned, and perhaps justed as talented(?), and we all got to see a fairly decent Travers. If you bet on Quality Road and are a fan because of what he has done in the past I find it strange you could or would have had your opinion change from yesterdays 3rd place finish???

As for Rachel, since everything revolves around the lust I have for her.. She certainly was flattered by the relative ease that Summer Bird won. He is certainly no matche for her abilty.

As for Mine that Bird, congrats to the connections for taking a deep breathe and not pushing the gelding. Hopefully this neat little guy will be around G1 races for a few years.

Well said Freddy.:tro:

If QR comes out of the race fine, then no harm done. But too many times in recent times we have this scenario play out differently.

Respectfully, Tim Ice wants no part of Rachel and would will avoid her at all costs.You think getting whooped by Rachel will help get those broodmares into the breeding shed? I like Summer Bird a whole bunch. Won a lot of money on him in the Belmont and think he is very solid G1 colt. BUT he can't beat Rachel with a head start. As my friend said recently, "Rachel is reminding everyone what a truly good horse is".

He wasn't avoiding her under less than favorable condtions in the Haskell and he was ready to take her on in the Travers, he's willing to take her on, if Jess Jackson and Ass-man agree I'm sure they will meet.

Mr. Pletcher, or his owner, hasn't learned from history.

Back a few years, a very nice colt named Repent looked like a top Derby contender until he came home gasping behind War Emblem's tour de force in the Illinois Derby. He had surgery for a bone chip, was out for several months. He was bred to be a natural 10f horse so his people decided to bring him back in the Travers against a razor-sharp Medaglia d'Oro. Well, Repent gave Md'O everything he wanted, fighting down to the finish to be a close second in the mud. That was it for Repent; he had given his all and he never raced again.

As I recall, the same agenda was followed for Bellamy Road following his defeat in the Derby. He had been emptied out running with a super-fast pace and needed recovery time. Again, they brought him back in the Travers! And again, he ran an honorable second to a horse with race fitness, Flower Alley, and never ran again.

One could argue that having that prep in a sprint race makes this case different from those of Repent and Bellamy Road;that may be, but a horse who is suspect in stamina (which those two weren't), needs more preparation for a such a challenge of his limits.

Dalakhani,

I am sorry if this not explicit enough for you, and since I know you think context is nothing it will probably not satisfy you, but to people without such agendas, it is pretty plain that I thought QR was pretty suspect trying this path:

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...037#post559037

Again, if he bounces back solidly, no harm. But that remains to be seen. And I am raising this issue BEFORE anybody announces any thing wrong with him, so you can shut the hell up later if it happens. I am not predicting it, but it is close to 50-50 to me, from the way things tend to go in horse racing nowadays.

The colt has not exactly been the soundest colt on the planet. They get hurt training, shipping and every other way imagineable. The colt raced fine. He is certainly talented and has a fine trainer that could get to his ultimate potential evidentually if he stayed sound..The big issue is the clock, Is there any shot he isn't servicing mares Feb 1 10 instead of at Paysons Park still in training getting ready for the Donn? If so, we will be lucky that Evans kept what could be a real fine colt in training. More likely, it will be 100 mares at 25k a pop.

Ann if they aren't going to race at 4 your argument holds no water. You only have so moany races of significants to make a stallion. That is the issue in a nutshell.

By the way Freddy,

If I were RA connections I would be awful leary of facing a rapidly improving colt that has already demonstrated he can win at 1 1/4 to 1 1/2, who has won at Belmont, and now has shown a new dimension of being able to be placed closer to the pace when my own filly may have already run her best races and is unproven at 1 1/4. If anyone is afraid I wouldn't side that it's the Summer Bird camp.

There was no agenda and really nothing personal. I thought the criticism after the race was lame and i called you out. Deal with it and lets move on.

Lets hope he comes out of this race fine and maybe we can see him at least one or two more times.

Cheers

If he is sound, he still has a an outside shot at the 3YO title, but it would require him to win his next 2 races, with one of them being the BCC, and at least one of them including SB. If they think he can't do that, they will likely put in him the shed. He's got no poly form at all, so that doesn't help. Maybe he should target the Goodwood, too.

Rachel is 10 lengths faster a 10f's. He has zero chance at 9 or 10f's.. ZERO.. Tim Ice knows it and risking the horses potential reputation as a stallion by getting crushed is NOT in the flight plan..

You know I may sound grumpy and yes I did wake up grumpy this morning, but you gotta love the Rachel love in on this board, I guess you need someone to balance out the opinions here, losing to the greatest filly of all time from what I have read here is not a disgrace(that's assuming she can beat him at Belmont if they meet) and will not detract from his overall legacy as a stallian, he has already stamped that ticket with his win in the Travers yesterday and the Belmont to a lesser degree. Achieving both he most likely will be a Stallian of great demand.

I have no idea if RA is the greatest of all time nor will I suggest it at this time.
The point is RA is faster then Summer Bird by a lot. I have no idea if RA is better then Personal Ensign, Go for Wand, Winning Colors, or whatever filly from 1941 that Pedigree Ann will enlighten us with. To me its impossible to determine which filly would beat which filly. I do know Summer Bird has zero chance against RA and more importantly so does Tim Ice.

What are you basing this on? Beyer speed figures, one isolated race at Monmouth? The media hype? Isn't this the type of premature thinking of not taking into account that maybe certain horses improve as they get more exp? We know this can especially happen in the middle of a 3 yr old season. In addition she has to continually run high numbers, is it reasonable to say she can substain these races under untested conditions, you have to atleast admit(once again divorce yourself that she is a filly) that as a horse she has beaten 2 horses dueling themselves into the track in the Mother Goose and sitting off a distance challenged Munnings and a gunned out and out of element Summer Bird all on a renowned speed favoring track, race dynamics gift wrapped and tailored made to her strenghs.

Speaking of zero risk to reputation.. Zenyatta, a mare that will reside with her current ownership making babies forever, is supposed to be given the opportunity to prove her greatness against Rachel. I have the word of respect for Zenyatta and think she is the only horse that needs to be given an opportunity to attempt to beat Rachel.

Rumor has it that Byk has been working the phones night and day to get this match up done!!

Experience isnt going to make up the chasm that was between Rachel and Summer Bird in the haskell. There was no real excuse in that race for Summer Bird. She was just better and i didnt see anything that would make me think the tables could be turned...except maybe 10f instead of 9f which she hasnt run yet and even that would be a reach.

Her Preakness win is clearly her most impressive race. 2 week lay off, never raced against colts, comes off a monster G1 effort, Gets pressured every single step of the way, racing for a new trainer. You see Rachel did what Quality Road, a very very nice colt couldn't. Quality Road did what 99% of horses that aren't conditioned for, yielded to the many obstacles that faced him. I think that doesn't mitigate him as a potential terrific colt BUT when a filly overcomes pace, conditioning(remember Ole Hal Wiggins was never interested in ant TC races) and first time colts it suggests that she is well beyond just a super talented sort like QR. Now go forward off that race and look at the progression that she has made and you HAVE to recognize that she is just way better then Summer Bird.

I surely hope if they do meet, I am in the minority in my opinions. Obviously from a wagering standpoint especially.

http://drf.com/news/article/106834.html

Interesting comments from Pletcher:

Quality Road, who was beaten five lengths while finishing third in the Travers after being jostled at the start, also came out of the race fine, according to trainer Todd Pletcher. Quality Road had just one 6 1/2-furlong race between winning the Florida Derby on March 28 and Saturday.

"I thought the horse was well prepared yesterday, I thought he got the mile and a quarter fine, I don t think that had anything to do with him not winning," Pletcher said. "With a different post and with a little better break he could have been a little closer."
Pletcher indicated that the Jockey Club Gold Cup on Oct. 3 or the Goodwood on Oct. 10 were the "two most likely choices" for Quality Road's next start.

The Goodwood? Comical...

Why in the world would Tim Ice give Rachel a try unless she went in the Classic and he had no other option? He knows he can beat the colts that are around, save the better conditioned Quality Road who might be better suited for 9's? What's Ice's risk facing colts vs. facing a filly that has trounced him. You think coming in second works for the Travers/Belmont winner? Summers Bird is colt by a hard to figure hot stallion. He is a really nice looking colt that even in a depressed breeding market is destined for stud duty, why the heck would you risk that windfall? Think about this.. what would you do? Go beat Mine that Bird and Chartiman Man or come in second to Rachel?

Yeah, that makes no sense to me save the "start over the track" ideology. I think Quality Road should point towards the Cigar Mile.

Pletcher is great..Why didn't he say..This man is a main owner for me, The guy wanted to take a shot, The keeneland sale is coming up and I wouldn't mind if this guy bought me 5 or 6 more that have a shot in year, you guys get lost its a business I am running."