They kind of interchange because neither of them can guard a legit 4 but you are probably right that turk is more the 3. My mistake.

That's like saying Ron Harper and John Stockton played the same position. Or Brian Shaw and Chris Paul. Come on. What position a guy is listed as is meaningless. Turkoglu does not play the post at all. At all. Nobody said he's as athletic as McGrady. But in looking at their roles on their respective teams, it is very similar. Both of them are the secondary ball handlers on their teams and can either be used to relieve pressure on the point guard or to initiate the offense themselves. Both create their own shot off of the dribble and don't need screens and picks to get open. Both are good outside shooters but not great. Both can get to the basket. Both rebound fairly well and play slight defense. Both can go to the boards and get it off and take it up the floor. Dirk can't do most of those things. He can shoot off the dribble on only two moves. One is the pull-up and the other is the reverse spin dribble. Both of those, he can only do against big guys. He has big time trouble trying to take advantage of smaller guys that he should have a size advantage over. Notice how Bowen and Stephen Jackson both gave him tons of trouble. Dirk excels when he's guarded by someone of similar size that he can take outside because he has a quickness advantage over most of them. Turkoglu has an advantage over any power forward and he can also do his thing against small forwards. Offensively, they are completely different.

On that we can agree at least. Every series has been far closer than the supposed experts thought. You've lucked out cause Denver and Orlando choked in all the big moments even worse that Kobe has.

I'd have to disagree with you here. Neither one of them is a real power forward. They are in essence both small forwards. Turkoglu has more of a post game than Lewis does and even he doesn't have much of one. Lewis can only go to the post if a guard is on him. Lewis' game is 95% perimeter.

I'm thinking more in the defensive sense. Both want to play on the perimiter on offense no doubt but which one would you want playing defense on the interior and grabbing rebounds. In that sense I think Lewis is superior.

Dirk is almost always being guarded by a guy that is smalller than him. How many big guys guard him? They can't stay with him out there. He is 6 11.

Dirk can't start the break off of the rebound? Do you want me to pull up the youtube videos where he does?

Dirk can't get to the basket? He was 8th in the league in ft attempts.

Teams don't "choke" in a seven game series. they win or they lose. Anything beyond that is a lame excuse. Big plays are part of every game whether they happen in the first quarter or the fourth. Over a seven game series they even out and the better team wins.

Teams "choke" when they are in a series that they are outmatched physically and are outmatched by the officials? Any series against the Lakers now implies the officials are against you which is very sad. Kobe choked multiple times this postseason and almost cost them games. But then the team they choked against choked even more afterwards.

sigh. The lakers were called for 28 fouls and shot 20 free throws. Orlando was called for 21 fouls and shot 37 free throws.

If the officials were against orlando, it must have been one of those weird conspiracies where they agreed to put them at the line almost twice as much as the other team.

Out of the two, I'd probably take Lewis to put on a power forward. But it's basically the same. I don't think either of them can do it effectively. Lewis is a 6-10, 215 pound lightweight that has a career average of 5.8 boards with a high of 7.0 In nine seasons as a starter, he's been under 6.0 four times. It breaksdown as 1.6 offensive and 4.2 defensive. His career average is 0.6 blocks with a high of 0.9

It's a little bit harder to use Turkoglu's career stats because he's spent so much of his career as a reserve. But in the last four seasons as a starter, he's averaged 4.3, 4.0, 5.7, and 5.3 boards.

Here's how they compare the last two seasons starting with each other

2008
Lewis 46% (41% 3's) 18.2pt, 5.4reb, 2.4ast, 1.2stl, 0.5blk
Turk 46% (40%) 19.5pt, 5.7reb, 5.0ast, 0.9stl, 0.3blk

2009
Lewis 44% (40%) 17.7pt, 5.7reb, 2.6ast, 1.0stl, 0.6blk
Turk 41% (36%) 16.8pt, 5.3reb, 4.9ast, 0.8stl, 0.2blk

That's such a bad statistic and you know it. If one team is pulling up and shooting jumpers and the other is pounding the ball into Howard then you expect the team with the guy pounding inside to get some calls. That said, I'm not going to call out the officials in Game 4 since I only got back for the end of it. I did watch all of Game 3 though and that was one of the worst officiated games of all time.

The lakers shot 20 free throws the hole game. Thats including OT! and you are calling conspiracy.

I admit kobe gets calls like nobody outside of Lebron but he isnt getting so much love in the playoffs.

The officiating might be bad but it is bad both ways.

I admit I didn't watch most of it but did the first half occur underground? Did you watch Game 3 Fu, there was no doubt in that game about 10+ calls.

I watched it. The lakers were called for 25 fouls in that game while the magic got called for 21.

I just don't see how it has been called unfairly. Nothing stands out as blatantly bad. Game 2 Kobe got a couple of calls i think should have not been called but over all its been even.

In two games in orlando its 53-42 lakers in fouls against.

Even though Bill Simmons is a Celtics fan I don't know that he is completely unbiased in this series. But for the record here is his account which pretty much meshes exactly with my thoughts at the bar on Sunday:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...8&sportCat=nba

Turkeyglue is light years ahead of Dirk
off the dribble. It aint even close. When was the
last time you saw Dirk back the ball to midcourt in
a halfcourt set to get some distance between
himself and his defender?

Ball handling and the ability to go
to the basket off the dribble is a
huge diff. between these two.

Dirk handles the ball very well and gets to the basket. he was 8th in free throw attempts.

When Dirk receives the ball at the FT line and
closer. He is not a perimeter ball handler.
Turkeyglue is. They are very different in this
respect. Turkeyglue is much, much quicker.

Hedo is a legitimate penetrating big man.
(the women love this aspect of his game)

Hedo isnt much, much quicker than anyone.

Dirk goes to the hole all the time. I dont know what you guys have been watching but if you want i can put up video.

NOT from the perimeter.

And yes, Hedo is much, much quicker than Dirk
with the ball.

They play a diff. game. Turkeyglue initiates offense,
Dirk plays closer to the basket with the ball. And waits
at the 3 point line for shots away from the basket.
It is quite obvious. To me anyway.

The white European lumping syndrome is a strong draw.

Will youtube video settle it or will i hear some lame excuse telling me that what i have watched for the last ten years isnt real?

Dirk handles the ball well from any point on the floor and he drives to the basket and he can go coast to coast and run the break.

I only read posts in paragraph form so I don't even know that you are arguing at this point in haiku. What I do know is that Hedo is far more effective as a point than Dirk could ever be.

I dont debate that. Hedo handles the ball better than dirk. I never said he didnt. I just debate the silly notion that Dirk CAN'T handle the ball and that he DOESNT penetrate or run the break. Thats silly. I've watched him for years and I don't remember too many players his size that could handle the ball that well.

How can any of us debate with this? HOW????

Read back through the read. The notion that Hedo and dirk as comparable in skills was thrashed as if i was comparing mugsy bogues with chuck nevitt. I called hedo a poor man's dirk and it was if they don't do many of the same things. One person said that Dirk can't penetrate. Was that you?

I'm done. Debating this says more about me than it does anything else.

It was your choice to debate it not mine. I thought what you were saying was pretty silly to begin with.

This was part of your quote about dirk:

"Both create their own shot off of the dribble and don't need screens and picks to get open. Both are good outside shooters but not great. Both can get to the basket. Both rebound fairly well and play slight defense. Both can go to the boards and get it off and take it up the floor. Dirk can't do most of those things. He can shoot off the dribble on only two moves. One is the pull-up and the other is the reverse spin dribble. Both of those, he can only do against big guys"


Were you drunk when you typed this? this is just wrong. Dirk can do all of those things.

Dirk getting to the basket-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbkPX...eature=related

Dirk taking it up the floor-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tzDs...eature=related

Dirk cant do reverse spin over smaller players? hmmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZuMC...eature=related




KG, you are so full of s h i t sometimes. I admit im wrong all the time. Why is it so hard for some of you on here. Its just a stupid internet site.

LOL!!!

This is just not true when compared to Hedo.
You might find an occasion where Tim Duncan
has run a break, but if we consider the entirety
of a season and playoffs, it is quite clear that
Hedo is much more proficient than Dirk from
the perimeter with the ball. It really is not
even debatable imo.

I give you credit for trying to turn the
argument and your persistence.

"You guys were right and i was 1000% wrong about this team. Regardless of the outcome of the bet, the nuggets have played much better than I ever imagined."

Thats my quote about the nuggets.

In your 14,183,054 posts chuck, can you find me anything similar? I won't hold my breath.:)

In 8 years of reading kg's posts, I have never seen it.

I wasnt trying to debate that dirk handles it at as well. Never did. Just the notion that dirk CANT do many of those things. Look back in the thread.

They do not play similar outside games.
Dirk is a spotup 3 guy from the perimeter.
Hedo is much more versatile from the perimeter.

Dirk handles the ball a lot in the halfcourt when
he is backing down a smaller player to shoot
a fallaway jumper. And again, Dirk handles the
ball on the dribble when he is close to the basket,
he does not pull the ball back out to the perimeter
to set up his man for a drive.

Im sure you can find cases where both have done
the opposite of what I have said. But for the
majority of the season and the playoffs, this
is how I see a small part of both player's games.

Dirk is not a spot up three guy in any offense from anywhere on the floor. He is too big a part of the offense. He handles the ball from any part of the floor although certainly not as much as hedo because its not the same offense. They are similar in skills if not how they are utilized. Dirk certainly being a much better player.

I once saw Manute Bol grab a rebound and look for an outlet man. Not finding one, he then dribbled the ball up the court. Stopping at the three point line, he then made the shot. So I guess Manute Bol can now grab boards, push it up and shoot the three as well as Kobe Bryant. I've seen him do it.

Dalakhani seems to not understand that there's a difference between being able to do something and being ABLE to do it. Just because you have an ability to do something doesn't mean you are proficient at doing it. The original point was that Hedo was a poor man's Dirk and that's just not true. They have completely different skills. Dirk can grab a rebound and take it up the floor on occassion. But he's not someone that you want doing that on a consistent basis because he can't. You can't put the ball in his hands and isolate him at the top of the key and have him put the ball on the floor and create offense, either for himself or for his teammates. You don't want Dirk leading your fastbreak and making the pass to the men on the wing. Hell, I saw Tim Duncan make a three point shot. But if I'm coaching against him, I'm giving him that shot all day everyday because he can't make it. He can but he can't. See what I mean?

Dirk does not handle the ball as much as Hedo
because the cannot handle the ball as well and
he is not as quick. They may run diff. offenses,
but Dirk could not do what Hedo does for the
Orlando offense.

Absolutely agree that Dirk is the better player.
He is Dallas. If Dirk had Howard instead of
the lumbering Dampier... a much tougher team.

Theres a difference that YOU don't understand. Dallas has always had an outstanding point guard while dirk was there. From Nash, terry, harris and now kidd. Of course dirk isnt going to be running the break as much. Of course he isnt going to be creating as much from the perimeter. He has guys around that do it better.

Hedo plays with perhaps the worst pg in the NBA and certainly one of the ten worst. Before that he played with Jameer nelson who was good but certainly not on the level of the dallas guards that dirk has played with. Look at his role when he was in Sactown. Believe that if necessary, dirk could play the same role. If you want, i can pull up clips where he does.

KIdd has a very difficult time creating his own offense.
For at least 2 years now. He is a distributor. If anything
Hedo's role on Orlando should have worked well for Dirk
at Dallas.

Alston can create. He is just really inconsistent. And Nelson
is much more of a creator than any of the Dallas points.

Lakers vs. Magic thread? F.UCK THAT. IT'S A DIRK VS. HEDO THREAD NOW!!

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