Using the KGB or Moussad as examples to support the righteousness of our intelligence efforts is akin to me bringing up Imelda Marcos to prove that i don't own too many pairs of shoes.

Depriving people of liberty to protect liberty never made much sense to me.

Actually action to the contrary has been pursued by his Justice dept

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027091370936935.html


And the people who want them released have yet to address the issue of where to release them since the vast majority are not welcome back in their own countries?

I made one post in this thread noting how those techniques are like the old KGB, as Solzhenitsyn wrote in Gulag (and btw as Alex Dolgun, an American embassy employee who was kidnapped off the street in Russia by the KGB during his lunch hour, and was imprisoned, wrote also), so yeah, I do really think that those 10 techniques are comparable to what happened in Russia - because, well, they are.

It's nice that you just make broad assumptions about what I think, especially when I'm not posting about the subject. Saves me the trouble of having to actually participate :rolleyes:

No it is pointing out the hypocrisy of those who wish our services to operate in the publics view and avoid condemnation from foreign countries when similar agencies of other countries do neither. Holding ourselves to a "higher" standard will also make the CIA a less effective organization.

I'm sure all the prisoners that were executed (or simply disappeared) would testify that their interrogation techniques were a little more drastic than sleep deprivation. But hey Siberia is a convenient place to send prisoners.

When you post, the general assumption is that you are participating in the thread and from your answers it seems fairly clear what you are thinking.

Actually, Obama's actions are prudent in this regard. Surely 90 days isnt enough time to institute a policy on such an important matter. He was better to stick to the current gameplan before making any changes in matters of national security.

Who said anything about wanting everyone released? And how do you know that "the vast majority are not welcome back in their own countries"?

If our military were less concerned about civillian casualties, it would be much more effective. That fact that we hold ourselves to a higher standard is expected in that regard...No? Why should intelligence be any difference especially with the money and technology our agency (s) have at their disposal.

It isnt condemnation from other countries that i worry about but rather the hypocrisy within our own actions. We use our military and our agencies to spread and protect freedom while at the same time taking it away without just cause. That doesnt make sense.

Sleep deprivation impressed me as a big deal technique when described by the two authors I mentioned (because it impressed them as such).

"Your answers"? Plural? I made one post. Seven words. I commented on the types of procedures on the US list: "I'll bet someone read The Gulag Archipelago".

You apparently are hearing other answers from me in your imagination.

But as I said, your assumptions about what I am thinking, on subjects I haven't addressed, saves me the trouble of actually having to participate in this thread.

BTW - what am I thinking now?

Fried the Japanese Civilians with the A bomb, and (as a people that didn't question their leaders) they all deserved it. Carpet bombed Dresden. Believe me, they thought they didn't need to know exactly what their leaders were doing. They went along with their leaders (just being loyal etc.) We could easily have a city here get hit by atleast a dirty bomb, because people think we tortured (and sadly we don't know exactly what our leaders had done down there.)

LOL...SOUNDS RUSSIAN.

We don't make that much "stuff" anymore. We better be considered a "just" sanctuary, and it better be stable. What you're describing is a pretty slippery slope. You don't have a problem with either

1)no trials

or

2)torture (like this waterboarding surely is.)

nominated for dumbest post of the year:tro:

:{>

Why my love?

you really think that depriving terrorists of sleep to extract information out of them is a big deal and a bad thing?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/pages...obay-cases-eng

I know...a bunch of leftists. They are lying. The US doesnt kidnap anyone without due process and without just cause.

Do I lose my nomination for post of the year dear?

ive missed you antitrust!

Kisses. I will check back later today.

Chuck, i know you missed me in this section.

Didn't this same amnesty group criticize Britain for a human rights report condemning Iraq and Sadam saying it was a propaganda tool used to go to war or was I dreaming that?

Hi Dala!! :{>:


I just wanted to get your attention!! :p

but I think Dells responce was good enough.

"Kidnap? that's kind of funny. Maybe you think we should be on trial then? How do you feel about killing them while in the war zone? Disarm the military and give them tasers? Maybe just throw wads of money at them and run away."

whether they are prudent or not the fact is that he has discovered that his rabble as a candidate and th reality of the situation are two different things. They are not doing what they said they would which is a good thing.

It has been written many places that we cant send the majority of the prisoners back to their countries because they either arent welcome or will not be safe from their own govts.

I know it is you but do you really think that if terrorists were capable of using a dirty bomb against us that they wouldnt if we treated their prisoners in a better manner?

Greater good. No policy can make everyone happy or cover every circumstance. Innocent people are in jail right now. Doesn't mean we should scrap the legal system.

At least you are willing to engage on the topics at hand and dont just fake intellectual superiority as a defense.

It's coming back now. Didn't that same report include footage of Iraqi political prisoners being forced to jump from a 3rd story roof to break legs and testimony of the rape of wives and daughters as a coercion technique. But yea let's not let that out. The group is more left than the the Soros Foundation. Sad cause they weren't always that way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042002818.html

Oh by the way the techniques worked....

Not to be confrontational on this exact note either, but I can't just take that for what this former Bush speechwriter says they are. That's like asking me to take Cheney's word for it.

Now, before you go say "well it's in the memos," let's also point out that given my serious, very serious, issues with that administration's honesty and given the fact that the memos justifying torture are being ripped apart by scholars all over because they use pathetic reasoning to justify it, sorry if I don't immediately freak out in celebration that this actually provided actionable intelligence on specific threats.

Sure the LA Tower threat. But on the flip side, a Polish friend of mine got mad at me the other day and put his hands around my neck. To get him to stop, I sang like a bird about my plan to overthrow the government of Poland and turn it into a permanent gay vacation destination, a Polish gayDisney, if you will.

Now, because I was so foolish in succumbing, the Polish government has "actionable intelligence" to foil that threat of mine. Damnit!!!

See, it's all in who's telling you what. So, sorry if I'm not quick to jump on the former Bush speechwriter's claim that this was all on the up-and-up and that it was effective. Can't think of any other reasons he would do that, outside of a penchant for being honest about everything, right?

that is a horrible comparison. If you had already succeeded in turing another country into a gay disney.. than it would be a more honest comparison. This man who gave up the info after waterboarding also succeeded in bringing down the World Trade Centers, if you remember. Any intelligence that was gathered at helped foil a plan to bring down the Liberty Tower should be celebrated. Somehow the liberals in this country can make claims about how that is a bad thing (like you just did with your analogy).

Which is exactly the problem with this issue. You dont believe the source because of a relationship with the administration yet who else is there to know if the info is correct? Therefore regarding the whole issue it is impossible to reach a true and valid conclusion. The gray areas far outweigh the black and white.

I'm just saying that it doesn't mean it was actually going to happen. It doesn't mean it was close to happening, and therefore any intelligence was actionable. It just means they thought about it.

Also, don't forget that we had intelligence about them planning to strike in the United States too, remember that? Just saying. Having intelligence doesn't mean we stop anything necessarily, it just means we know about some portion of the plan.

And regardless, I don't recall having ever been a really serious 'torture never works' type. Maybe I have and you'll find it for me, but I certainly don't remember ever holding a steadfast view on it. I'm obviously suspicious of it, which was the point of my post to Chuck...that I'm dubious of these claims given the source, especially if that source was busy trying to find a way to justify torturing people, you kinda get the feeling they'd have an incentive to say that it works...whether it does or not, right? That's not partisan stuff, that's simple common sense.

Nothing changes that torture is wrong in my eyes and that's the problem between me and you and Chuck and everyone, your future collection of Muslim dicks notwithstanding.

lol I want nothing to do with Muslim dicks and that is not what a was refering to with my post before. I want American rapists and child molesters to have their dicks chopped off.

By the way, with your viewpoint... you MUST be pro life and against the death penalty also, correct?

This is a nice try, but no, since only killing actual , aware people bothers me.

So, I'm anti-death penalty and pro-choice.

So Gacy should still be around?

Being anti-death penalty is not a malleable position for me.

With that bit of information, you should be able to answer this question and any other future examples that may come to mind.

Conservatives and liberals seem very hypocritical on these issues.

If conservatives believe all life is sacred... than putting the worst of the worst criminals to death should be a no no.

Of course it should be the opposite case with liberals.

I would be able to answer all future examples that may come to mind if I knew what the word malleable meant.

Changeable, basically. My anti-death penalty view is non-negotiable. As much as I understand the impulse for certain people, trust me I do, it's about the principle for me. It's about the fact that you be better than other people who do bad things. Killing them in a nicer way does not count as "better" to me.

I'm perfectly happy with my thinking on it, because if I don't actually believe that an aborted zygote/fetus/Wev is a person, then I don't create a moral contradiction by my indifference to its not existing any more. So I'm not actually contradicting myself.

What a beautiful world it would be. Gacy, Bundy, McVeigh etc etc all alive and well. We can't torture them either so what do we do? Pull a Hillary and just refuse to talk to them. Or ignore them by focussing on the 'amazing caribean dancers'?

I just don't presume to be the arbiter of determining exactly what somebody has to do to make themselves unsuitable for living, or in other words, suitable for us to kill.

I don't believe in eye for an eye punishment. It's perfectly your choice to, but I'm just not of the mind that we should be running around killing people to prove...that killing people is wrong.

Call me illogical.

No, I don't think it's a big deal or a bad thing.

fair enough

Not trying to pick on you because I respect your anti-death penalty and pro-choice views (I'm pseudo pro-choice also). BUT.

How come liberals think it is okay to kill your unborn fetus with an abortion, but if a drunk driver killed a pregnant woman... that should count as a double murder??