One last thing on the HOY

In 10 years you think they are going to be saying "remember the brilliant year Curlin had in 08'".....doubt it, what they are going to say is Curlin was a good horse but much better as a three year old in 07'

while in 10 years they will be saying remember the year Zenyatta had in 08' never challenged and undefeated.

just saying

Put it another way. I don't think there is a chance in hell that Indian Blessing could beat Curlin in a 10f race with a full field of horses. But put them together at 6f in a four horse field and she is the lone speed and she'd crush him. An extreme example for sure but just bringing out the point that race analysis is very important. Plenty of times in racing, the result is not as clear cut as it may seem at first glance.

In this particular case, you seem to be taking the defensive, as if I'm saying that Hystericalady is a better horse than Zenyatta is when I'm clearly not saying that at all. But I've seen way too many situations where an inferior horse is allowed total control of a race and beats a superior one. I believe that had the Lady's Secret been on dirt, that would have been the case this year. It has nothing to do with how good I think Zenyatta is.

I guess what is the point, that a hypothetical exists that could have beat her, we could do that an infinite amount of times with races and horses?

Of course we could but my response was only to the statement that you made that Hystericalady can't warm up Zenyatta on any surface. I took that to mean that under no hypotheticals would HL have a chance and I don't agree with that.

There is nothing in this exchange that would put me on the defensive, KG. Simply a difference of opinion. If you wish to believe the results would have been different in the LS had it been run on dirt, please go ahead and indulge yourself. I think you are seriously underestimating how powerful Zenyatta is on the dirt. True, she's run on it once, but what a race that was. Lord have mercy. I don't doubt what you think of her, KG. We just see things differently. I'll just rock on in my non objective world where she is concerned and enjoy her. :)

It would take a hell of lot more then a slow pace and dirt....

the best way to do it is to lay down real fractions and finish, say 22 45 109 and 134

Azeri could do that, HL could not.

What? HL could very well set those kind of fractions, she has a G1 sprint race to her win column doesn't she? The Humana Distaff at Churchill.

They just never asked her to in a route race.

Hardly. I think she is even better on dirt. That Apple Blossom was major. In a fairly run race on dirt, Zenyatta still beats Hystericalady. I don't doubt that for a second. But I also know that on dirt, HL doesn't stop like she does on sythetics and she's a top class mare that if allowed to get an easy lead through soft to moderate fractions, would be VERY hard to run down. It can be a dirt race with fair fractions or a pace battle and Zenyatta could probably beat HL by more than she did in the Lady's Secret. I'm only considering how that particular race played out though.

Fair enough.

i can't help but wonder if either will be spoken of in ten years....depends on how zenyatta does i suppose, she's not thru yet. but i don't think curlin did anything worth re-hashing ten years from now.

Sorry if I missed this in the 90 posts thus far in this thread, but does anyone here actually think Zenyatta would have won the 08 BC Classic had she run in it?

I think she would have had a great shot. I don't know if she would have won but she probably would have beaten Curlin.

The difficulty in assessing her are the fields she has been beating have been far less in quality in what she would have faced in the Classic. I'm pretty sure she would not have beaten Raven's Pass had she ran in the Classic and she would have to have to win HOY IMHO.

Yes, I am sure she can sprinting, or maybe at Deleware Park where lots of strange things go on

but now I have heard it all, HL in the same class on the front end as Azeri (my point on the speed it would take to beat Zen). How many championships did HL win, people think she was some super mare in this thread.

ehh, she would have finished in front of Curlin though....heck even the great Tiago did that. Curlin was not the same horse at the end of the year.

Let's say for argument's sake she finished ahead of Curlin in the Classic, are we awarding HOY on a 4th place finish in the Classic? Deciding HOY is usually reserved for winning, not for going in the backdoor.

If Ginger Punch wins the Distaff again then Zenyatta wouldnt even have been given the championship if say she finishes third in the classic, let alone win HOY. I dont think that is worth the risk.

i think curlin did enough throughout the year to warrant winning hoy; losing on polyturf shouldn't knock him out of the argument.

she would have fnished ahead of Champ elyses (sp) but not Curlin

so you dont think Zenyatta is as good as Tiago?

I think it's hard to make judgements like these, Curlin was ridden to win in the Classic. Albarado probably moved too early and it cost him a few lengths, I seriously doubt they were in it to run for a placing, in the end it really doesn't matter if Zenyatta would have finished 4th or 5th, she would have to have won the Classic to be considered HOY, the argument is silly, it is almost like saying is Curlin as good as Music Note.

:) :tro: :tro: :)

its going to be curlin with zenyatta right behind. any other thought is a joke. peppers pride, big brown and commentator beat absolutely no one and its stupid they are even mentioned with the top 2.

No arguments on my choice here. The clear winner for HOY should be Big Brown. His results speak for itself. Based on the outcome of the BCC, I am more convinced Big Brown was the best horse in 2008.

i think big brown will finish ahead of zenyatta-and he may well finish ahead of curlin. the contention that big brown beat 'no one' can't really be argued, as the same can be said about curlin. the one really good field that he faced, he lost-that being the bcc. now, he gets a pass for that from many because it's an AWT, but the finish can't be discounted. i think big browns fla derby and ky derby looked far better than any race curlin put together this year.
as for those who say zenyatta didn't face males, therefore she shouldn't be considered-you have a point, to a point. the distaff division certainly wasn't a weak one this year, and she demolished her 'peers' time and time again, on more than once surface. that's something that can't be argued for either of the other two who will garner votes.

Or any other horse for that matter in 2008. That is one of many compelling reasons why Big Brown should and in my opinion will win HOY.

Better than Commentator's Whitney?

Exactly. Of course Big Brown's races looked good. He wasn't facing anything, especially in Florida. Big Brown's Florida Derby didn't LOOK any better than Commentator's Whitney and certainly didn't LOOK any better than Commentator's Mass Cap. They didn't LOOK better than Proud Spell's Ky Oaks or Music Note's CCA Oaks or her Gazelle or Indian Blessing's Test or Ventura's BC F/M Sprint or Goldikova's BC Mile.

I just watched the Whitney again. Very nice race for Commentator. He had complete control wire to wire and still had something in the tank. The reason I think Big Brown was equally impressive if not better at FL and definately better in the KY was the outside post wins. 20 horses entered in KY make that even more eyepopping.

I disagree. FL Derby Big Brown did face some talent. Hey Bern and Ilysium Fields were very good horses in April. He also destroyed the Belmont winner in that race.

Were you hired as a witness for the prosecutor or the defense? You weaken your argument on Big Brown's behalf by the mere mention of Hey Bryn and Ilysium Fields in the same sentence with the words "good horses". You completly destroy your argument by calling them VERY good horses.

And the Belmont winner is about the most awful horse to win a classic race in quite some time, as far as I can recall, so I don't think that helps either.

Well luckily for me, Commendable is just at the very beginning of my caring about horse racing....

But gun to my head I'm wheeling both underneath Jazil.

I said in April they were very good horses. I stand by that. Not very good as in past years but we are talking about 2008. And in April 2008 they were amonst the contenders for the Derby. To your point, neither one did anything special beyond that.

Jazil was underrated and not a slouch by any stretch.

Just because you said it in April didn't mean it was true then. I said Galloping Grocer was going to win the TC after his first couple of races. After a few more, I realized he was garbage and admitted as much. If you can't learn to adjust your opinion as more and more evidence pours in, your arguments really will have no merit because you will always be speaking from the perspective of trying to prove yourself right instead of objectively looking at things.

He beat everything he faced. I guess my bias throws out the Belmont because he was pulled up and arguably had several other things going on including an injured hoof. Clearly his foot injury factored into
his just wins, but he still did it. Big Brown also faced the most horses in the history of the TC during those five weeks. His KY Derby was more impressive than Barbaro's even though Barbaro was a comparatively faster horse.