It takes more than just the words CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are kidding?
Yes.
I believe so.

No Im not kidding.

Yes you are.

lobbyists?

Of course, but that is not necessarily in our National interest.
Just like giving aid to African countries after the 2004 tsumani
in the Indian Ocean is not necessarily in our National interest.

So our obsession with Israeli prosperity is humanitarian?

Not humanitarian, but a democracy among dictatorships.
And for strategic reasons. They are a buffer and they occupy
some of the Islamic hatred that would cause the varying factions to try to
wipe out each other (ex. the numerous Iran v. Iraq conflicts of the 1980's)
Israel helps deflect some of that, it could be a lot worse.

And they help with little projects like bombing Sadam's Nuclear power plant.
Just like they will if Iran gets to close. They take care of the dirty chores
for us.

One other huge thing. Intelligence. They have a very able intelligence
agency.

LOL, I love how you didn't deny that you're parroting fabricated stuff about the guy.

Any counterpoints, as valid as they may be, would brand the deliverer as an anti-semite.

I have already accepted Barack as a terrorist/muslim.

Counterpoints are productive in a democratic society,
and I personally would not brand you as an antisemite.
Now if you started chanting JEW BOY, JEW BOY...

What in Christ's name am I talking about?
I am supposed to be Catholic.

it's gods will, just like the natural gas pipeline in alaska.

Some Christian groups are very pro-Israel for just what you stated. Imo, Israel is extremely wary of this fantasy fascination.

We use them, just like they use us for strategic and intelligence purposes I believe.

Whatever, I havent fabricated anything about the "Guy" , he said he had Muslim faith , he has known and been around people who blow **** up for their cause , his heritage does go back to his grandfathers tribe that killed Christains. He hasnt done anything while being a Senator , and the closest he has had to a governing position is being a community leader. Pretty much in a nut-shell the guy is a farce , he hasnt done anything and I dont see how he is fit to lead this country , but he can have your vote.

I don't understand why you can't just start there. Why the need to bring up all of the other untrue nonsense perpetuated by right-wing lunatics? You know it's all just scare tactics, out of context remarks and dramatic exaggeration, so why parrot it?

Any arguments you may have are completely negated by your constant propagandism and incoherent hate speech.

you might want to be careful about dredging up heritage as a reason not to vote for someone, seriously. god knows what some peoples dead family members engaged in...

a little light reading, the first by olbermann.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27054958/

and then this is from the stephanopoulous interview--


"Asked about whether McCain himself has done anything to suggest he's Muslim, Obama said, "Let's not play games. What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith. And you're absolutely right that that has not come..."



"Christian faith," Stephanopoulos interrupted, correcting Obama.



"... my Christian faith. Well, what I'm saying is that he hasn't suggested that I'm a Muslim. And I think that his campaign's upper echelons have not, either."

i think anyone with half a brain can understand the questioning, and the context in which obama used the term 'my muslim faith'.

honu, still waiting for you to explain why it would indeed matter what obamas faith is???? also, again, how is palins resume any better than obamas?

I dont have a problem with his religion or any of that. My big problem with Obama is that he's written a bunch of books but no legislature. He's basically done nothing and the only reason he's in this spot is cause he's some kind of political celebrity. I honestly cant even believe he's in the position to run for president with his lack of accomplishments.

What were George W. Bush's accomplishments in 2000?

Let me see:

Ran a few business into the ground.

Snorted a bunch of the white.

Was in the national guard but was awol half the time.



What exactly are the "accomplishments" necessary to be president especially following the one currently in office?

Its really crazy about how much we give Isreal and do for them and protect them.

They are a more than competant country.

Our support for Isreal is basically the core reason the Middle East hates us so much.

I honestly think it is because of all the Jewish :$: :$: influence over here. I really hope this does not sound anti-jewish cause I am not at all and this post is not meant to come off that way.

You do realize that the majority of the Israel lobby in the US is made up of gentile support from Neo Conservatives.

yes, that fine party that you support.

You dont really believe this do you? The thought that we would be "homies" with the Middle east if it weren't for Isreal is so twisted that I cant believe anyone would believe it.

You are kidding right? Yeah the jewish vote always goes Republican. :zz:

You act as if there is such a thing as "the jewish vote" and you fail to grasp to what I was referring. Furthermore, you act as if every Jew is in favor of our policy toward Israel and the middle east.

The Israel lobby is not made up entirely of Jewish people. As stated, many in the lobby are gentiles...many neo-cons. Yes, republicans.

Umm, Did I ever say we would be "homies" with them if it werent for Isreal?? You're crazy if you think I believe that. I dont believe that for a second and you are putting words in my mouth.

But I do believe, down to the core, the Middle East hates us (and other western countries) for putting the Jews into Isreal after WWII. And they hate us for supporting Isreal so much by giving them tons of money and weapons. That add to that the whole "Allah wants Americans dead thing." and they dont like our lifestyles and culture. and They are basically jealous of us. Its a lot of things, but I feel our major support of Isreal is #1 to them.

There is such a thing as the Jewish vote and they always vote Democratic. You are so biased that you cant even see the folly of your assertions.

For all those that fail to see the forset through the trees, say we withdrew support for isreal and they became a target for the rest of the ME. How long until they (Isreal) started bombing the **** out of everyone and using nukes against iran and others? Is that a positive? Having ONE govt is that region that we can depend on is bad?

Saying that our policies and partnership with Isreal is based on neocon policy is absurd.

Please stop...

For anyone that really wants to understand the issue, a professor from Harvard along with a professor from Chicago University put together this essay. It is a great read if you have the time:

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

Warning: LONG

That 2% of the population vote? Barely more significant than the Muslim vote. And I believe in 2000 they all voted for Buchanan, not intentionally but that's still what ended up happening.

University professors can be insanely biased and without any background on them it is impossible to determine the validity of their arguements.

The fact that you generalize how an entire group of people vote based on religion is not only ignorant but dangerous.

Perhaps you should try to understand the subject before you argue it.

Again, we are talking about the Israel lobby...not Jewish voters. There is a huge difference if you choose to want to understand.

You are kidding too right? They all voted for Buchanon?

"The combination of unwavering U.S. support for Israel and the related effort to spread democracy throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized U.S. security"

Right from the Harvard article. No different from what I said.

Now if you could offer your own opinion or one of your friends in the governments' opinion, instead of just telling me I'm wrong, I'd like to hear it.

Yeah, in Florida, the whole butterfly ballot problem. The biggest Jewish counties in Florida wound up with the highest vote totals for Buchanan anywhere. Cause they thought they were voting for Gore and wound up voting for Buchanan.

Ignorant is blaming neocons for every thing that has gone wrong in the modern world. Do we not seperate the black vote and hispanic vote? Or woman voters? Are you reading what you are writing? Perhaps YOU should understand the subject because the Isreal lobby lobbies the PEOPLE IN CHARGE who happen to be Republicans. When Obama is in charge, they will be lobbying to him.

The two are highly respected scholars from two of the best insitutions in the world and both are stated philo-semites.

But yet, without reading the essay, you are questioning their credentials and the validity of their arguments.

Another level.

Harvard article. think for yourself for a change. The despots that rule middle eastern countries use religion to keep the power that they gain. They use US as the reason that the people in those countries are poor. They use US as the bad guys so that the people dont turn their anger against the leaders in their own countries. Bin Laden had no problem partnering with us when it fit his needs. We supported Isreal then too. Be real. Of course the arabs will use our support for Isreal against us to but the fact that places like Saudi arabia which practices the most extreme form of Islam is a US ally because of our protection of them and our buying their oil shows the whole "arabs hate us because of Isreal" falls way down the totem pole.

Yeah universities never have radical bents...

So all jews are too stupid to read the ballot? The Jewish population is all centered in a few counties in FL?

Yeah, that's clearly what I said. :rolleyes:

I happened to post how I felt about this BEFORE Dala posted the harvard article. Just so happens the harvard article feels pretty similarly to how I feel. Who the fucl< do I think for if not for myself?? :zz: :zz: