I didnt say bad days, I just said days where he didnt run his best. Sure, Big Brown's Belmont was way worse than any race Curlin ever ran, true dat. I know Curlin had a very tough trip in the KY Derby, and for him to finish 3rd was pretty darn good. Didnt he have a perfect trip in the Belmont though, and still lost?

I thought his FL Derby win from post 12 and Kentucky Derby win from post 20 were pretty great.

No horse has won a route from post 12 at Gulfstream in how many years and BB did it in the biggest race at the track? Let alone the Kentucky Derby from the IMPOSSIBLE post. I think that is a great accomplishment.

He got beaten a neck by a horse that's way better than anybody Big Brown has faced. Plus, consider that it was his sixth start since February, three weeks after running his eyeballs out to beat Street Sense in the Preakness. Do you think Big Brown would've done better in that situation?

what if hard spun would have stayed around..would curlin look so good now..

I agree with everything you're saying except for this - for the simple fact that Curlin and Any Given Saturday had very similar trips. Curlin was only a length or two behind AGS for most of the race and the two of them were right next to each other at the top of the stretch. If anything Albarado may have moved too soon on Curlin, but I think it's fair to say that Curlin had a bit of an off day in the Haskell - even if it was still an ok performance.

The things that Dutrow said about Curlin are really ridiculous and absurd - you'd think that he would be smart enough to keep his mouth shut this time. I especially enjoyed "Curlin got beat by a filly, we didn't." Well, Dick, you got beat by the whole field in that same race the next year - including a maiden. And "Our horse in undefeated on the grass. Curlin isn't." Aside from the fact that he wasn't "your" horse when he won his ONE start on grass, that was in a MSW vs. nobody while Curlin's was in a Grade 1 vs. two BC winners.

I dont really know. Its impossible to say. I was surprised Big Brown bounced back so quick (2 weeks) to crush the field in the Preakness. I dont think you are giving him enough credit for 2 reasons:

His lack of comeptition (not his fault)
His no show in the Belmont (still a question as to why)

Look, he was all out to win the Haskell, so maybe he is all done. But you have to be impressed with a horse who won from those outside posts in the Florida Derby and KY Derby. I dont care who he beat.

I think Curlin's competition was indeed very good so its obviously a no brainer that most think Curlin is the better horse (myself included). But I wouldnt ridicule those who think Big Brown is as good.

I might get in trouble for saying this.. and I love Rags to Riches as much as anyone!

But this is just a question I am wondering your opinion... especially since I know how you feel about Rags too... How much better is Rags to Riches than Eight Belles??

I completely forgot about Curlin's Haskell. I didnt think it was a good effort at all. But he gets a free pass because Any Given Saturday and Hard Spun ran
first and second and they were great horses.

:tro:

The filly and mare division is tough this year, better than the boys I think.

by daylight...

This'll be fun:

Eight Belles vs. Rags to Riches

Rags

not interested in answering this o.e.y??? or do you actually have a life unlike me..

I never said anything bad about Rags to Riches. I said she wasn't a 'monster'. She was definitely better than Eight Belles.

It was impossible to make up ground that day/weekend. Any Given Saturday just ran a gigantic race and I think it helped knock him out for the rest of the year.

LOL, it was the only time I ever needed Curlin to win from a wagering standpoint. I thought he had every chance to win and great horses overcome track biases. Just look at Ghostzapper in the Kings Bishop. If there was ever a more speed biased track than that day, I'd like to hear about it. I know he lost the race but he sure made up a ton of ground.

No jacket and too cheap to hire a groom

Don't look for an anti-Ghostzapper argument from me. :D

those were his best performances, for sure. but what recent derby winner could not have beat that field this year, from any post? remember most horses in the field had best beyer figs of mid nineties. do you think Barbaro or Street Sense or Hard Spun would have any problem?

I remember you being a huge fan. I didnt like the fact he only ran 4-5 times a year, but man, he could turn heads. What a turn of foot from any position in the pack.

He drove the horse there also :)


I am surprised he didn't wear the Dini Racing Jacket from 1999

It couldn't have been impossible if AGS did it :D

In my humble and frequently incorrect opinion,

Barbaro, yes he most likely would win, the other two no, a filly would have won the derby and then tragically died 30 seconds later (:( ). Not from 20.. I also think Barbaro would be the only one to win the FL derby from #12 either.

This is kind of funny....

SARATOGA SPRINGS, N.Y. - Not too long after Big Brown returned to the winner's circle in Sunday's $1 million Haskell Invitational at Monmouth Park, his trainer, Richard Dutrow Jr., also returned to form.

Following the Haskell press conference, the topic of Curlin, the defending Horse of the Year, and the Breeders' Cup Classic came up. Dutrow, known for his candidness and cockiness during the Triple Crown run, gave his assessment of Curlin.

"Curlin couldn't win the Derby, we could," Dutrow said. "Curlin couldn't win [the Haskell], we could. Curlin got beat [by] a filly. We haven't. Our horse is undefeated on the grass. Curlin isn't. I don't know why people think Curlin is such a good horse. We're way better than Curlin."

the question was whether or not Big Brown is better than Curlin, or if he is a great horse. it will be interesting to see how he does against older, I'm doubtful that will happen though.

Huh ?????????
 

DRF Press:

Following the Haskell press conference, the topic of Curlin, the defending Horse of the Year, and the Breeders' Cup Classic came up. Dutrow, known for his candidness and cockiness during the Triple Crown run, gave his assessment of Curlin.

"Curlin couldn't win the Derby, we could," Dutrow said. "Curlin couldn't win [the Haskell], we could. Curlin got beat [by] a filly. We haven't. Our horse is undefeated on the grass. Curlin isn't. I don't know why people think Curlin is such a good horse. We're way better than Curlin."



What is this guy on??????? Curlin would dust Big Brown on either turf or dirt!!! What a pathetic comment.

I think he's on the same thing a poster would have to be on to think nobody has commented on this two days later on this message board.

That's a partial quote. The original can be found in Esoteric.

Seriously, I feel like it's a running gag by a handful of posters that I'm not in on.

I dont think its a gag. Many have posted this on other boards and its quite legthy to make up. Why is it so hard to imagine that Dutrow could say such things? Not getting why this is so unbelievable. I think its funny.

It's more that about 8 people have posted it as original material

That's what I was referring to.

Jess Jackson on the Dutrow stupidity:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/97038.html

Jackson said possible races following the Woodward could depend on "who gives us the best argument on where we should be," a hint that he will accept bids from racetracks seeking a box-office star. As for a match-up with Big Brown, this year's Kentucky Derby winner, Jackson said if a track could arrange a showdown in a real race, "not a match race," that's "something that might influence us."

"They're both great horses," said Jackson, who said trainer Rick Dutrow's post-Haskell comments denigrating Curlin were "bad for racing" and "unethical."

On Monday, the day after Big Brown won the Haskell, Dutrow said, "I don't know why people think Curlin is such a good horse. We're way better than Curlin."

"To run down another man's horse demeans the industry," Jackson said. "I would like them to meet, for the industry and the fans."

if that matchup was to happen, i might finally root for curlin to win one.

HAHAHA!! Jackson calling someone unethical. This is top shelf comedy, folks. Lap it up.

:D

Well well well, it was true after all. Not made up. I cant believe Dutrow would ever say such things.

No one said it was made up. The running gag I was facetiously talking about was the dozen different people posting the quote as if it hadn't been discussed on the board already.

I also bet $50 straight up on Big Brown to Win.

Let's agree to disagree on our assessments of Big Brown.

Giacomo, and possibly others.

Would Street Sense or Hard Spun have had a problem? We can only guess, but probably not. I doubt either would have shown that explosive move that Big Brown demonstrated when he spurted away from the field, though.

Winning from the outside at Gulfstream was considered near impossible before this year's Florida Derby. Despite that, when Big Brown drew the outside at Churchill, many cappers (including some here) were ecstatic that they would be able to bet against him while the "clueless" would bet him regardless of post.

Here are some very good recent horses that didn't win the Derby from better post positions than Big Brown's: Cat Thief, Point Given, Medagia d'Oro, Came Home, Empire Maker, Afleet Alex. Granted, these horses faced more solid competition than Big Brown (though Point Given finished behind Invisible Ink and Thunder Blitz), but my point is that the Derby is not a 'gimme'.

There's no question that Curlin has run against significantly better horses than Big Brown. I, too, think he is the better horse and has by far the greater accomplishments. Dutrow's comments were idiotic. But Big Brown's 3 race run from the Florida Derby through the Preakness was impressive in its own right.

--Dunbar