Weak, terrible its all semantics. Same implication. You call the horses he beat "good" and then say it was a weak crop. Okay...I dont get it but maybe that is tainer speak.

What evidence was there that Sakhee would do so well? How about Dubai Millenium or Giants Causeway? Before they raced on dirt, how would you have known? To the really good ones, it often times doesnt make a difference.

Some people have this opinion that horse racing is divided up and the sports are completely different. Im not of this opinion. To me, horse racing is horse racing. They are all bred in the same place regardless of where they race.

Lamtarra showed me more talent on the track than Bernardini did. Whether it was on dirt or turf is immaterial in my opnion. But accomplishments? Those three wins (epsom, king george, arc) in starts 2,3,4 are things that Bernardini coudlnt have matched.

This totally sums up my feelings on BOTH horses that you named. I felt the same way about mineshaft but that was disregarded as blasphemy.

And I agree Bernardini was a very nice horse.

Mt. Livermore got his fair shair of turf runners, too, so the point was the same. But yes, I was dead wrong there.

I would take issue with Shoemaker Mile effort. He chased the ridiculous Special Ring (who freaked in several races out west during that time frame) and ran a better than it looked 4th, just missing a placing. He concentrated on sprinting thereafter.

Whatever...I dont see why a weak crop couldnt have some good horses in it. For instance...the 2008 US 3 year olds...

The evidence is that they DID IT!!! You cant say I think he will do it and have it mean anything. Before they did it was nothing other than guessing. It isnt like his dam was a dirt horse or his sire was a dirt sire.


I find it interesting that the Preakness, Jim Dandy, Travers and JC Gold Cup are somehow not important races or "as important" as the ones you mentioned.

When you say that you have this special talent to distinguish talent in a horse regardless of style of racing, surface or distance it makes me wonder why the rest of us are missing this trait and that you are morphing into a cross between my friend PG and KYRIM.

If a crop has four quality horses, these days especially, then it rates as a pretty good crop. 2008 has about 1 good horse in it. What crop in the US in the last five years had four decent route horses and if there is one isnt it a good crop?

Preakness, Jim dandy and travers are all restricted races and restricted to a bunch of mutts. And the JCGC? The Jcgc lost most of its luster with the BCC. Definitely not the same race but then again wanderin boy is so much better than pentire was. And you are saying that is even in the same realm to a horse winning the epsom, king george and ARC in starts 2,3 and 4? ???????? The Arc is, in the opinion of some, one of the most important races in the world if not THE most difficult. He won it in his fourth start.

But hey, this is all subjective. If you think Bernardini was a better racehorse, then you are entitled to your opinion. I wonder how Sheikh Mo would rank them.

I think you need to speak for yourself here. It seems that there are plenty of trainers/owners/breeders that have this special talent. I dont possess the gift you describe but i dont think it was necessary in what we were discussing.

Aracangues? who would have known? Not bred for dirt and never raced on it but mysteriously wins on it.

The point is its another surface not another sport. Surface preference doesnt make for a whole other breed. A racehorse is a racehorse. But hey, what do i know? I foolishly think the arc is a tougher race to win than the jcgc.

Was

Actually I never said he was a better racehorse. I just questioned your assessment that Lammtarra would beat Bernardini. i just dont understand how you can come to that conclusion unless there were specific parameters laid down. I dont feel like rehashing the crop versus crop debate but I will say that Lammtarra didnt beat a superior group of horses much as bernardini did not beat a superior group of horses.

And I dont think that european turf racing and American dirt racing are close enough to the same thing that it is possible to compare horses.

How about a horse like Dubai Millenium? Could you compare him?

He won a legit dirt race so yeah though he wasnt a three year old when he did

same horse though. Whether he wins that dirt race or not, he is the same horse.

In your humble opinion does he beat bernardini? Was he a better horse?

I fail to see your logic. If he runs badly on dirt than we have something concrete to base our judgement on. IMO the only way you can judge a horse is based upon his accomplishment, not what might have happened. However accomplishments are not necessarily equal from year to year. Is the Arc winner =BC Classic winner? Is the 2007 BC Classic winner = 2008 BC Classic winner? It is all debatable but I cant tell you if Miesque was a better horse than Sunday Silense because they are different types of horses. If you want to debate Miesque and Lure, you have something solid to base that on. If you want to debate Curlin and Cigar, fine.

it is like asking who is a better baseball player? a pitcher or a batter? They both play baseball but they do entirely differnt things.

I mean no one thinks that Goovy was a better horse than Skip Away but at 6 furlongs I would take Groovy everytime.

chuck, curlin or cigar ? im kinda young for cigar i dont really remember, i have seen his pp's though....who do you think is better ?

Who cares...

I'm not a Cigar fan but he was much better at this point.

im curious...

i value your opinion, so i guess at this point its cigar

Cigars best is probably slightly better than Curlin's.

Still the analogy doesnt work. Both were 3 year old route horses. One raced turf in europe and the other raced dirt in the US. Heck, they were even related by blood (cheap i know). Racing is racing. If you want to compare, you can compare them in their respective specialties and respective accomplishments. And if you want to compare year to year, the fields that Bernardini beat that year were...ummmm...light and none had the quality of the fields lamtarra bested.

it doesnt take your friend PG or the Aga Khan or any other luminary to look at two horses, even ones that are racing at diffferent times in different parts of the world and on different surfaces to make a judgement on quality. Quality transcends surface and style.

I brought up Dubai Millenium, a horse that raced one time on the dirt, and compared him to bernardini. You said they can be compared because Dubai Millenium actually raced on the dirt but you never said who you thought was a better horse.