This type of activity needs to be eliminated from racing. It is a recipe for breakdowns and cannot be accepted by what I hope will be a new national racing body that will enforce rules for honesty and health.

running back two days later does not happen all the time. in my database of 65,000 starters, it happened 5 times.

I was hopeing you would weight in Jim. Any idea how those 5 did?

Spyder

one second, one third, three out of the money.

three came from Leo O'Brien, one from Dutrow and one from Contessa.

Leo O'Brien actually sent out horses after two days rest on consecutive days last winter. so in four days he got 4 starts from two horses.

What were the conditions, though?

Leo O'Brien and Allen Jerkens have been known to sprint a horse (assumingly as a glorified workout) in anticipation of a route race a couple of days later (Fourstars Allstar was a good example, I think he ran in the Laurel Dash and showed up a couple of days later in the International).

Its one thing to run a horse on short rest when the initial start could, at least on paper, be labeled as a "tune-up" and a whole other thing if a horse is meant to be all out in both races (which often times is not good for business).

Good points and thanks Jim.

Spyd

well i don't know if you would call these tune-ups or what.

My Guarini, trained by O'brien
Jan 9th, debuts MSW at Aqu, finishes last by 44 lengths
Jan 11, MCL15000 at Aqu, finishes last by 36
never seen again

Maps Hope, trained by O'brien
Jan 10th, MDN15000 at Aqu, finishes 3rd by three, best finish for Leo
Jan 12th, MSW at Aqu, finishes 5th by 4,
horse then sent to Duggan and actually just broke maiden on June 18th.

Eclectic, trained by Dutrow
mar 27th, str ALW at Aqu, airs by 5 lengths over a 4 horse field.
Mar 29th, ALW at Aqu, 3rd by 1 1/2
has raced a couple times since

Ease My Mind,
Apr 3rd, CLM 35K at Aqu, finishes 8th by 13, ran for Timothy Hills but claimed by Contessa for Winning Move.
Apr 5th, ALW1 at Aqu, finishes 6th by 8 lens.
raced again June 18th, Clm 12.5K at DEL finishes second

Hoist The Gala, trained by Leo
May 15th, Mdn 35K at Bel, finishes 4th by 5
May 17th, MSW BEL, finishes 2 by 1/4
just raced again last week finishing 5th, still a maiden

you could be right, and I wasn't sure either. the claiming issue was sort of added on to the main topic about quick comebacks.

Great selection. She matches well with him and he can help her physically especially behind.

How about Comeonmom.

What about him?

What I meant is that horses who have known injuries or are "ticking time bombs" are run all the time, when rest is warranted. I don't know anything about the horse in question but he looked like one that they knew had a serious issue and they ran this risk of several quick works and a couple of closely spaced races to give the claiming trainers the idea that he was a sound/fit horse, one ripe for claiming.
The other points were that this is not something that only done by "claiming trainers" and that even if this Dutrow horse had been give (say) 2 weeks rest he probably still would have broken down. It's pretty likely that he had something about to blow.

This is heresay, and from the FOB forum, so take it with a whole shaker of salt.

Can anyone verify it?

http://forums.prospero.com/alexbrown...s?msg=25843.49

I have no first hand information about whether the horse was euthanized but these were not his first two races of the year. He had been away about a year, but before these races, he ran in late May/early June at Belmont and/or Monmouth.

The problem with the FOB board is that while there are alot of orsemen on there, very few have ever read the DRF and couldn't tell as past performance from a pasta primavera. Alot are fans but they are really not well informed about the inside working of the game.
With all due respect to the horsemen here on DT, many don't nreally know that much about handicapping and don't read the PP's regularly.

Confirmation that the horse was euthanzized: http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/du...se-euthanized/

you say it well........................:tro:

Maybe he was talking about Iwoman who just won at Arlington?:zz:

I was in Ascot in 2006 and if im not mistaken, they ran Takeover Target on Tuesday and turned around and ran him again on saturday.

I think each horse is different. I dont see why it is such an outrage to have a horse run back if he comes out of a race fine and he is ready to go.

Obviously, Dutrow's wasnt...so im not trying to justify anything. My point is, that we cant blame what happened on the fact that it was two days. We should blame it on the fact that that particular horse wasnt ready.

we're talking about a two day turnaround with cheap horses, and you give an example of a top horse that ran back in four days.

how do you know for sure when the horse is ready to go? what is the limit? can they come back the next day? later in the same card? I'm sure some horses could do it, the question is aren't you inviting trouble and exposing them to increased risk at some point?

well, trainers are supposed to know when a horse is ready to go. a quick turnaround on its own may raise eyebrows, but isn't necessarily a reason to call peta--but if dutrow had indications that the horse shouldn't run, and ran him anway hoping for a claim--well, then he deserves all the grief he can get.

Exactly!

Your points are valid. I just dont think in this age of treating horses like china dolls we should complain about trainers actually wanting to run their horses.

And what does the fact that the horse is "cheap" have to do with his his soundness. Are cheap horses more or less likely to sustain injury on a quick turnaround?

Found this.

Too bad...

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/du...se-euthanized/

In some cases, a lot. Unrequited, for example, was a well-meant horse (he was owned by the nationally prominent Jay Em Ess Stable) from the outset, making his debut in 2005 in a maiden special at Del Mar for Ron Ellis. After that race, he was gone for over 6 months before resurfacing at Hollywood and winning a maiden special weight at Hollywood. Despite lining up against future stakes horses such as Sailor's Sunset, he ultimately began dipping into mid-level claiming ranks with some success in 2007 in CA before disappearing again, this time for over a year. He finally resurfaced with the stable's East Coast trainer, Dutrow, who ran him a few times before his fatal injury.

When you consider the fact that this horse had two long layoffs during his career and was steadily dropping in value (where once he butted heads with stakes-calibur horses), certainly, even on paper alone, his soundness (in general--not necessarily at Monmouth on raceday) had to be questioned.

I hear what you are saying. And again, my point was never to defend Dutrow with this particular horse. I dont know enough about the situation to speak to it one way or another.

My point was more in that there are horses that can run back really fast and some of them are stake horses and some of them are cheap. Its the trainer's job to know which ones can and cant.

Obviously, in this situation, Dutrow was wrong in thinking the horse could do it.

Dutrow ran The Cuban Hawk in today's 7th race, going 1 1/16th on the turf, off an 11 month layoff. He finished a credible third. He is entered, at 6F on the turf, in Friday's 9th race.

Surely he was cross entered and will scratch... Surely...

He knew he was running in today's 7th when he entered for Friday.

Not to be picky, but this would not be the correct situation to use the term " cross entered. "

Cross entered is only on the same day? Thanks for the clarification.

Hope the horse doesn't run Friday after what happened last week. Has he totally lost his mind?!! How much more bad publicity does he want drawn to him?? Unreal!!

he's done pretty well with the 3-5 day comebacks.

I guess he couldn't find a race on Thursday.

I was'nt aware of that.. Kind of a throw back to the old days of training. I know trotters run that way, but I just figured he would want to "lay low" for awhile instead of pushing the envelope. Has this horse run back before on 2 days rest?

No, but its not a sure thing that he goes on Friday either.

Has there ever been a case of a horse actually running two races in a day.

Is there a rule against such lunacy or is it possible for a trainer to "pull up" a horse early in a race and then race on the same night at a nearby track.

Earlier in this thread we discussed how Dutrow did it with Golden Man, in consecutive stakes, on consecutive days at Monmouth and Delaware, a few years ago.

Oscar could have.

But that wasn't Richard. The trainer was Lawrence Walters at Monmouth, and Tony Dutrow at Delaware. :rolleyes:

Golden Man was Dutrow's horse, for Goldfarb and Dubb. Apparently, this occurred when Dutrow was serving a "suspension." Walters was Dutrow's Monmouth assistant, so the horse ran in his name there, and Tony Dutrow apparently saddled the horse in Delaware for his brother.