only on a computer

don't even bother arguing with . "this horse could beat this bunch on 2 legs" people. the best is when i'm at the track and some idiot says "this horse can't lose". i always feel like saying how many horse races have you seen and bet ? and sometimes its guys that have been going to the track forever. any horse can lose any race thats why they run them to begin with. whenever i here that crap on a short price horse it tells me to bet more on who i like. big brown with the injury plus a mile and a half will be in deep water. i would not even count out tale of ekati or dennis of cork . let the "this horse can't lose people " cash their $3.00 or less mutuel.

Buckpasser had a problem with quarter cracks - he missed the entire Triple Crown while his hoof grew out after having one - but he still managed to win 25 of 31 races over 3 seasons of racing, from 2 to 4.

I copied this from a vet report:

"Quarter cracks are a common cause of foot lameness and/or decreased athletic performance in race and sport horses. They typically originate at the coronary band and continue distally. They are full thickness, extending into the dermis of the hoof, which leads to instability, inflammation and/or infection. Quarter cracks are painful due to infection and/or the result of instability caused by movement of the hoof wall posterior to the crack. The vertical movement of the heel bulb on the affected side further complicates this instability. Causes of quarter cracks may include trauma to the coronary band; preexisting damage to the corium from infection; abnormal hoof conformation - especially the long toe underrun heel; focal foot imbalances; short shoes; or an abnormal landing pattern when the foot strikes the ground."

I see both genetic and environmental factors mentioned as possible causes.

Damn global warming strikes again!!!

NY Newsday reported that he did gallop his usual 1 1/2 miles yesterday as written by Ed MacNamara.

there's your gremlin i bet.

Northern Dancer didn't have a problem with quarter cracks, as I recall. Ran 9 times at 2, 9 times at 3 before he bowed a tendon after the Queen's Plate, to the best of my recollection. Danzig had a tricky knee that limited his starts to three. Both of them were stretching it to be 15 hands. Hard Spun was ND/Danzig clone; Big Brown is nothing like them in conformation and his physical problem is nothing like theirs.

Yes, he did. He suffered from quarter cracks in his left front, but they raced him with a rubber patch.

Yes it does.
When feet are so closely looked
after like BB's and then the quarter
cracks are gone. Problem solved.
The hoof continues
out, they run him some more, and there
they are again...

That just seems like something to stay
away from. Honestly this horse had to
have been given some of the best foot
care of all time. It indicates a deep problem
imo.

The breeders just supply the market though.

I think I was two when Northern Dancer ran.
This is what I read. But thats really far back.
Boundary given by Z and Mr. Simon would
obviously be a better (closer) example.

Just relaying what vets have said
around horses with quarter cracks.
I ask a lot of questions. One in particular
from Texas ATM was of the opinion that
they are natural fault lines in some horses
revealed by pounding.
Conformation issues would exacerbate pounding.

If it were clear cut we would not be
discussing.

Feet. Feet. Feet.
Thats was a very prevalent
topic.

its for real. they are saying he could still run. of course it will be patched up or a bar shoe. you really think he wants to scratch him? everyone thinks dutrow is a blow hard. but theres a reason he does not want to run this horse every few weeks. why do people act surprised about this. everyone knew he might not make it going in to the TC!

Considering how much he ran in his career (15 times before the Preakness) they couldn't have been the more severe sort. Maybe because he was littler (less weight) the damage was less and the patch was sufficient.

I am on a crusade to revive respect for the little horse (under 16 hands). Hyperion was little, Northern Dancer was little, Round Table was little (Shoemaker on his back looked a normal-sized jockey!), Tom Rolfe, Arts and Letters,... In the two great 3yo rivalries of my lifetime - Affirmed/Alydar and Easy Goer/Sunday Silence - the smaller horse came out on top. Give me a neat, balanced 15.3 horse over one of these bulky 17-handers without the ankles to hold them up, anytime.

I'll take 15.3 hands any day of the week, but I would consider that more an average size than anything else. Maybe 16.1 or 16.2 is more the norm nowadays. Wasn't Northern Dancer like 14.3 or something like that? He was definitely a little guy. :)

"Big Brown, who will be seeking the coveted Triple Crown in the June 7 Belmont Stakes (gr. I), has a "slight" quarter crack on the inside of his left front foot, trainer Rick Dutrow said May 25."

from bloodhorse

Oh, yeah, 15.3 would have been average for a long time. I think many folks would be surprised at how "small" some of the great heros of the past actually were, like Count Fleet, Seabiscuit, Citation, War Admiral, Bold Ruler, etc. were. I have stallion registers from the late 1960s and early 1970s wherein stallions were listed at 15.1, 15.2, 15.3, although some of the 15.0s may have been stretched a bit ( 14.3 sounded too pony-like). Nowadays if you can't say 16h (on tip-toes), you don't list a height. The fashion for big horses has gotten out of control.

Is there really such a thing as a slight quarter crack? Isn't any quarter crack serious?

Paul

Missing some training probably isn't that big of a deal for this horse at this point though, is it?

Chuck talked a bit about that earlier in the thread. I don't think you're going to hear anything but best case scenarios from Dutrow at this point anyway. I'll be anxious to see when the horse actually gets back to the track and see what Dutrow has to say in about a week.

Dutrow already indicated the problem was
solved after the Derby, or maybe that was
before the Derby.

Not as big of deal because he just ran twice but not exactly ideal. It may be an easy thing to take care of and wind up being a non issue.

Majestic Prince, the first good son of Raise a Native, had been a top-priced Keeneland July yearling ($250K - oooh) and a big, strapping chestnut (although he was probably no bigger than 16.1 - this is speaking relativistically). He started later in his 2yo at the late lamented Bay Meadows, came into the Kentucky Derby as the unbeaten West Coast champion. Won it, beating the Blue Grass winner Arts and Letters by 3/4 or thereabouts. Won the Preakness, too.

Coming up for the Belmont, scuttlebutt had it that trainer John Longden (who had ridden Count Fleet back in the day) didn't want to run him. Nothing specific mentioned, mind you; something just not quite right. But Frank McMahon, the owner, wanted to try for the Triple Crown so Majestic Prince ran; he ran honorably, finishing second to Arts and Letters (who had tuned up by beating his elders in the Met Mile). Arts and Letters went on to win the Travers and the Woodward and the JC Gold Cup and become Horse of the Year; Majestic Prince never ran again.

Moral of the story: if your horse ain't right, don't run him, Triple Crown or not. The question now becomes - will Big Brown be right by raceday?

Yeah, but you can name horses stuff like:

Mein SHAFT

JOHN SHAFT

This Cat SHAFT

SHAFT Can Yadigit

POWER SHAFT

if a filly, how about shesgotthegoldmine

And carrying lite weight.

I better refrain ( on giving out the filly names...LOL.)

'if everything is good, the colt will on the track for full training by Thursday.' he will go a week without going to the track. i would think that would be an issue.

'Dutrow said he noticed a small spot on the colt's foot Friday afternoon and notified hoof lameness specialist Ian McKinlay, who treated it. By Saturday, it had turned into a slight quarter crack, five-eighths of an inch long. McKinlay applied iodine solution and said he’s confident it is very minor. '

chuck, the guy treats it and then it cracks...calling for more treatment. guy says it's minor.
what do you think?

You have to take it at face value I guess. Iodine is used to dry it out. The real problem is you rarely know what is underneath till it comes out. Ian is really good. There is still plenty of time to mess with it. It may well be no issue in 2 weeks.

so you don't think missing a week of training will hurt? best case would be no further spreading, no underlying issue and he's back on track on thursday, with a work next tuesday. is that enough? will he be ready for 12f, taking everything into consideration?

I agree 100%. But the problem is the breeding business appears to have serious short-term memory. Four years down the road, if Big Brown is a flop at stud (which he almost certainly will be), the douchebag breeders will be so occupied with clamoring for the latest Derby winner, they'll forget all about how much they inflated Big Brown's prospects. Plus, as long as people keep paying exorbitant amounts for yearlings and two-year-olds, the breeders will be heartened to keep overvaluing horses.

What people seem to forget is that racetrack success doesnt always translate into stallion success. It is one of the things that the 'medication is ruining the breed' types seem to forget. Just look at the 70's. Secretariat, Affirmed, and Spectacular Bid who all rank in the top 20 all time (maybe better) all were disappointments at stud as were Alysheba, Easy Goer (though he didnt get much of a chance), Spend a Buck and Devils Bag in the 80's and Skip Away and Formal Gold among others in the 90's. None ever sired a horse close to themselves. Medication had nothing to do with it either. Most stallions are failures, plain and simple. The real problems started when people started to pay top dollar to breed to unproven stallions versus proven ones. By paying big bucks for a few years before we know what they got, you are allowing the breeders to pay huge money and escape with their hides. Surely Three Chimneys thinks that they will have enough support at a high level to pay the money they did for BB but I am skeptical of what people will feel like in a year from now.

a lot of people are going after first year stallions, looking to get that instant bang for their buck. get in, get out, make some money before the stallion proves to be in the 90% of stallions who won't make it, rather than in the 10% that do. a lot of established sires are having a hard time getting a full book. makes no sense, but everyone is looking for a show horse, not a race horse.

i'm thinking big brown will turn out like real quiet or monarchos.

big brown is case clays first big buy since taking over as president of three chimneys. i think ieah got the better end of this deal by a mile.

IEAH didn't actually get all that much money... The deal "places his value at $50 million".. which means Three Chimneys may have paid just $10 million for 20%.

....or $60 million for Big Brown and an overhyped IEAH runner to be named later......

now, i know they insured the horse for 50mill.
no details were given on the stud deal, other than clay saying it's for breeding rights only. so are they basing the stud deal on the amount of insurance purchased?
how does that work when they say they've only purchased the breeding rights, rather than just an outright purchase of the horse?

I'm tired of hearing this. Secretariat was a darn good stallion; he sired 1) a Horse of the Year (Lady's Secret) 2) a Preakness/Belmont winner (Risen Star) 3) a Travers/Hopeful/Vosburg winner (General Assembly), 4) a Melbourne Cup winner (Kingston Rule), plus a good number of graded/group winners. As this recital indicates, Big Red was a stamina sire, however during his early stud career Claibourne and partners mated him as though he were a typical Bold Ruler son, with stamina mares. Only after his first 2yos got to the track did they realize their mistake and start to give him mares with a bit more speed (like Great Lady M.).

Affirmed was never expected to excell at stud by the Blood Grass elite breeders; he was by Exclusive Native, who was okay but not top drawer, while the damside was distinctly blue-collar. He was never given the top level mares, yet he still sired 1) a multiple US champion (Flawlessly), 2) a Canadian Triple Crown winner (Peteski), 3) classic winners (Trusted Partner, Bint Pasha), and numerous group/graded winners, including everyone's favorite, The Tin Dude. He, too, tended to produce horses who didn't excell at 2 on dirt tracks - most were better at 3 or older and on turf. That was a truly strange breeding result - a horse who never ran on turf and whose parents and grandparents never ran on turf should become an excellent sire of turf horses. Who can figure that one out?

None of those nine great horses where really brilliant sprinter/miler types with sharp early speed except for perhaps Spend A Buck and Devil's Bag.

Spend A Buck has managed to sire four different multiple Grade 1 winning millionaires .. all of which from South American dams. They being Pico Central, Einstein, Antespend, and Hard Buck.

While Devils Bag wasn' a bad sire either - he was obviously a big disappointment - but his much lesser 8-year younger full brother Saint Ballado, who only sold for five figures as a yearling, has been a smashing success at stud.

Brilliant speed seems to be clearly the #1 stallion making quality.