This is the kind of post that makes people call other posters " trolls. "

Just argue your points. If they're strong enough they stand on their own. If they aren't....deal with it.

Trolls whine about people being mean to them. You choose.

I'm now printing and framing this post instead.

This is my happiest Derby Trail moment.

You're gonna admit that Zanjero is a likely Grade I winner soon, aren't you?

i gave it a 90 vs. an 86 here. i had hoped it would be better but i have to give it an unbiased rating based on the subject variant.

and just because i got in the bunker before it got good is no reason to be so mean.

i'm a little sensitive right now so i apologize if i'm wrong about you but i don't think we should see each other anymore.

it's not you, it's me.

It's all there in my Questions about Big Brown thread. Not going to rehash. Plus you and I exchanged a couple of private IMs last night so I think you know.

This thread just took a shocking twist.

There are reasons I didn't expect Zanjero to win a Grade 1, like you did, this year. One is that I don't really think he's good enough ( don't forget, Pimlico hadn't faked their way into making the Grade 3 Shaeffer the Grade 1 Pim Special until March ). Now, I would have to say I did slightly overestimate this year's group ( which you, smartly, didn't ). However, the other reason is that Assmussen has not exactly had a good record of developing horses past 2 or 3. That trend is continuing.

And don't use Curlin as a counter example. It would be beneath you. I think you probably agree with me overall.

Do you go to ASU?

What about Curl.......oh.....nevermind.

Why would I "argue" my points when the thread was QUESTIONS about Big Brown. I was clearly asking for some opinions to my questions. I was hoping to learn.

Maybe a troll is somebody who doesn't know the difference between arguing and asking? I'm not trying to be oppositional but if I am whining it is because of several who instead of answering my questions instead put me down for starting a Big Brown thread and entry level questions. Instead if you are that bothered by it, then go on to the next thread.

Who put you down? Stop your whining.

Speak for yourself. :o

I think you know what I think of Big Brown, and have from the start... Silver Charm would have blown his doors off. He wasn't revered because he had to battle for both the Derby and the Preakness- most people aren't smart enough to realize how good a group that '97 TC was (and it was excellent) versus the pathetic group we have this year- they just see margin of victory.

I still get goosebumps seeing that Derby stretch run when they play it on HRTV, or Denman's call of the Big Cap.

I'm not sure how smart one needs to be to see the difference.

So let's have a role call. How many of the boneheads have actually gone and ordered the book? I'm guessing none, as they'd rather live in their fantasy world. I'm also guessing all the evil contrarians out to discredit Big Brown already own a copy.

i feel the same way about it, excellent post.

Why learn something about the game when it's easy to live in a fantasy world?

this is exactly what i'm talking about! time and distance, helps put things in perspective. we all know silver charm was a good horse, a very good horse-altho he didn't probably get as much credit than from many as he does now! 11 years later....
who here misses silver charm? i do!

Comparing today's horse to the champions of the past is a waste of time.

The sport will never be the same. Mediocre horses like Evening Attire get press by simply being a suckup horse still competing at an advanced age. If this horse was a professional basketball player he'd be Dikembe Mutumbo.

1 year campaigns. Maybe 1 and a half. 10 races max. Bobby Hurleys.

Being very careful not to "Hanifin" myself. So my lips are sealed. The one thing that would be nice would be sunny and 80 with no wind on the deck.

The beauty of this whole thing is how Big Brown is perceived by the general public. We can hash this out all day long because many people on here love the game, know the game, and have a great appreciation for its history.

Enter average sports fan. Since the Preakness I've been asked by many of my teaching and umpiring colleagues, friends, students, etc. what I think about Big Brown. It's interesting to see the excitement that this horse has generated among the general public. We can hash this out all we want to, just like baseball enthusiast would compare players from past to present, but it's the people who think that Silver Charm is an anniversary gift that this story is reaching out to and they are grabbing it.


So, where am I going with this? For the first time in quite a while, we have a horse, like him or not who is putting horse racing on the map. It's the first time in 21 years of following this game that I've seen this much interest from the casual fan. Let's run with it!

I sure as hell do.

i get asked about him since people know i'm a fan, but it's not turning any of the questioners into a fan. kind of like when the ncaa tourney rolls around, and i play a bracket, or we talk about it at work. i still don't watch basketball, nor will i.

Dont' be so sure about that.

Right. It is nice that people are talking about horses right now but whether or not this is creating new fans is debatable. I suppose it's possible, and better than nothing, but this whole notion of a TC winner helping the game has always seemed false to me.

Racing needs more bettors....and situations like NYC-OTB forcing a takeout increase are FAR more detrimental to the game than a TC winner could be helpful. A takeout increase will bleed people dry and force players out of the game.

My circle of friends are probably the exact type of people that "the sport" is talking about when they say "new fans": dudes in their late 20s and early 30s who make decent money and can afford to bet on horses and actually like to gamble. However, at best, the sport MIGHT be able to captivate them enough to follow the Triple Crown, and maybe a few of the Derby preps. That's it. The chances that any of them will become regular horse players is zero. Why? Because it is impossible for them to feel that they have an edge over the other bettors. On random trips to the track that we have made over the years, I have heard this or a similar comment more than once: "Even if I understood all this stuff in the program (which I don't), I know there is a lot more to this betting equation than I can read here. So who in their right mind would bet real money, when they are essentially just guessing?"

In other words, my frineds would rather play poker, where they THINK they have an edge, than bet horses, where they know for a fact that if they don't watch 200 replays a week and study for 8 hours a day that they are at a disadvantage to better bettors.

In order to attract new bettors, this sport needs to make more changes than it is willing to or is capable of making. Period.

many people where i live do have intrest this year.. must be the ups tie in..

id rank bb off the top 20 horses sence 89 ' or so lets face it hes an ok horse in a weak year...holy bull ,silver charm,war emblum,ect he would end up looking like scrappy t if it were a normal year..imo

I'm not completely sold that a TC winner will attract more fans either, but at least for the here and now, it is pretty cool to see that there is an increased interest in the game over the past few weeks.

Unrelated...I'm watching GMA and the Counting Crows are on right now. Their lead singer has gotten quite a belly.

That's an EXCELLENT point. I know people who won't touch horse racing just for the mere fact that they don't want to be wrong or don't want to take the time to learn a little bit about the game.

I agree and I also believe this will be the death of horse racing. To have a sensational horse ran 8 times TOPS is a travesty. One of the great things about super horses of yesteryear was how many times we got to see them run.

Best example I can give is Funny Cide. Couldn't stand the horse at 3 and was stunned he won the Derby. Bet against him every chance I got. However, when he was still racing in 2006, I actually tuned in to see him run because it was a novelty. I was actually rooting for him.

The game will disappear if horses continue to retire immediately after a great accomplishment.

I wonder what would happen to the sport if we got rid of the Breeders' Cup, and if buyers like Godolphin and Coolmore stopped going to auctions.

And if drugs were banned, or reduced.

Simply put, a TC winner that continues on through the end of the year might attract a few fans. One that races the next year might attract a couple more. One that's retired after the Belmont will attract none. Probably will even cause some to be lost.

No idea where to put this, and it's relatively old news, but I can't believe nobody has posted this quote anywhere from Jim Squires:

Paris, KY:
Does racing have real problems or is it just a public relations issue that will go away with some slick advertising? Also, would a Triple Crown for Big Brown help us move on?

Squires:
I certainly don't have anything against Kentucky-bred Big Brown, who is lovely and fast. But if a Triple Crown winner with a history of bad feet, slow opponents and from a barn with a history of drug positives can solve this problem, this is an industry not worth saving.


http://www.bloodhorse.com/talkinhorses/JS051608.asp

'fans' this time of year are like people who go to church at easter and christmas.

i think you have a better chance of building fans by taking friends, who show some interest, to the track, show them a little bit about betting, and then hope they hit.
maybe my son will now be a fan, since he went to arlington and got to get a good view of it all thanks to me being involved in dee tee.

it's the same level of interest as every other year at this time. but handle being down should be a warning sign to the industry.

Something I've thought about:

If horses retire early and let's say diminish their racing career by two years to go to the shed, is it not correct that in two years those races lost will be replaced by (not sure the number) let's say 10 offspring that will come into the sport. So, over time will we not have more quality runners replacing those two years missed.

Thoughts?

Spyder

Wow.

I don't think this is true. I think there was much more interest in Smarty Jones just 4 years ago. They had hour long programs on cable TV...a "biography" special program on him. He had all the angles...the crushing his skull in the gate at age 2...the murder of his ex-trainer...old man Chapman. Coming from Philly Park. I don't see anything near the interest in this horse. I see nothing more than any other time we have a horse going for the triple crown...and in this case, much, much less than the previous one.

I agree. Smarty was a way bigger deal than Big Brown, and so was Funny Cide for that matter.

not necessarily. a good horse on the track doesn't always produce good horses once he's retired. but if he does produce, they're just whisked away immediately as well. horses aren't around long enough to pique the imagination, to develop true interest or a fan base.
look at how many folks visit horse farms to see these former stars...if they were still at the track, and could draw visitors there, then tracks and the industry would benefit. the only ones benefitting right now are the breeders based on the current scheme. but if they don't support the industry they are breeding these horses for-eventually they'll be out of business, as the sport could eventually disappear due to lack of interest. shortsightedness now, and the big money grab now, could cost the industry down the road.

But with two more weeks to go before the race, don't you think there is plenty of Big Brownmania to ensue? I can't imagine ABC not going all out to promote this race like crazy. Plus who knows if UPS will add an extra dimension to this.