But you'd still date her...or is it only waitresses? :p

It's a service industry thing.

have you heard dark side on SACD? sublime

DrugS's parents were in diapers when Damascus was running.

They were, of course, married.....but he's from Erie.

Don't you think winning races like the Arkansas Derby and the Kentucky Derby despite having Elliot on your back requires a certain amount of greatness from a horse?

It takes a special talent for any horse to win with him....however the Arkansas Derby is hardly a career defining race and whether his legion of fans like it or not, the torrential rain prior to his Derby made that race moot. Lionheart was absolutely out of gas when they turned for home and still held second easily. The truth is that nobody ran a step that day.

Hey, losing to Birdstone was no disgrace. But, it was hardly the sign of a great horse.

This goes against your earlier belief (which I 100% agree with) that will they remember you in 25 years, 50 years. Smarty Jones will be remembered as great in 25 years, as he is now by 95% of the racing population. Everyone of his races was pretty amazing (other than the Southwest where he struggled around the track against mediocre types.)

Is Seattle Slew not great because he ran poorly in the Hollywood race?

He was going to win that Derby, torrential rain or not.

The debute of an overnight stakes at Oaklawn called "The Smarty Jones" is scheduled for Monday 1/21. They will be handing out Smarty Jones bobble horses to those in attendance. Regular fans of this meet will remember a lot of horses who came through Hot Springs on their three year old campaign, but probably none will be more remembered than Smarty. John Servis won a lot of fans too with how he made himself accessible to the media and the fans. Hopefully some day he'll get another shot. Stew, oh well, Stew is Stew. I must agree that his best win was the Preakness. :rolleyes:

The word 'great' was tossed around with all of the following, how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

I so want one!

Barbaro is sort of hard though in my heart I think he was the best because of his abilities on both surfaces. Seems pretty cut and dried after that......Curlin, Bernardini, Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex. I actually probably liked Afleet Alex but he is pretty clearly the last of that group. No disgrace, they're all pretty damn good.

I also wouldn't argue with anyone who put Bernardini ahead of Curlin. That seems arguable.

none were " great "


Curlin
Barbaro
Smarty
Bernie
Alex

That's exactly how I would put it.

Really? It just seems Curlin beat so much better.

I don't know about that. Bernardini lost a race to Invasor where he was best and Invasor was most likely better than anyone Curlin beat at 1 1/4. Hey, I'm a Street Sense fan but he's no world beater. Bernardini was a vastly superior horse to him.

1. Curlin
2. SJ
T3. Barbaro
T3. Bernardini
T5. Alex

Not separated by a whole lot. You could make arguments for each.
Hell, Alex was the only one to win a G1 at 2 AND 3 (let alone multiple graded stakes!) He only gets downgraded for the horrible competition he faced and generally lower figures.

I despised Curlin and still do but respect him nonetheless.

You're a way better judge than I, but I think the performances Curlin put up in the JCGC & BCC were far superior to anything Bernardini did the year before. Lawyer Ron was pretty good in the Gold Cup too.

hard to rate them, as only one faced older with a win, curlin. and another tugs at the heart, and isn't as proven, as barbaro wasn't able to stay in competition. of course he did plenty in the short time he had, winning the derby over what was called the deepest field in years, after showing he was a top turf performer.

curlin imo accomplished the most, smarty was undefeated til his second in the belmont--and raced at varying tracks and distances. but i don't know that the crop he ran against stacks up to the 06 or 07 crops. afleet alex i would also put at the bottom. didn't do as well before the t.c. and i feel that crop also lacked depth.

barbaro/curlin
smarty
bernardini

i had bernardini ahead of smarty, but then remembered that bernardini only raced one year-i think that matters. and unlike smarty, he lost his debut.

I think all things being equal, Bernardini's effort in the BC Classic would have given Curlin a very hard time. Plus, Bernardini's Preakness win extremely impressive.

I think the two are relative equals, and like I said, could argue either side. I rated Curlin ahead of Bernardini. It's close.

close for several of them. hard to compare horses who haven't faced off--or that did without both finishing.
hell, there are people who will argue that alydar was better than affirmed, and easy goer was better than sunday silence-even tho the record is pretty overwhelming to show otherwise.

I think it speaks volumes about the quintet that we all had Alex last.

I tend to agree with BTW that Barbaro was the "best" of the bunch. Smarty Jones and Barbaro are the only two that I didn't see in person, but Curlin is BY FAR the most visually impressive horse I have ever seen up close. Not just for that reason, but I would tend to put him second, because of his ability to fight (and with one exception) win stretch duels. I'm not sure that I can separate the other three because in my mind when each of them were presented with a challenge, they lost... be it Smarty to Birdstone, Alex in the Derby or Bernardini to Invasor... Now in all three of their cases I think they were compromised by jockeys, but in my heart, I think that Barbaro and Curlin would have found a way to win that Derby, that Belmont or that Classic, and thus put them at the top of this list...

True, I'd have to agree with what Drugs said earlier in the thread about it being easier to rate individual performances over entire careers now. (although admittingly I thought this was going to be followed by an avalanche of Discreet Cat posts, but the day is still young and the next primary is a few days off ;) )

That being said...was Bellamy Road's performance in the Wood great?

Without question. But, I also believe he was one of the most talented horses I have ever seen. Unfortunately, he never got a fair chance to show it. Shocking that Ed Sexton wasn't able to prolong his career.

I agree 100% about Birdstone. Nobody is a bigger supporter of him than I am. Unlike nearly every other person alive, I have always thought that on a dry racetrack, at distances of 10f or beyond, Birdstone was simply a better animal than Smarty Jones. Unfortunately their careers were both so short that it is impossible to know for sure.

I disagree with you when you say that the extremely wet track in the Derby makes that race "moot" in any discussion of the horse's greatness. I think the ability to win on different types of tracks probably should be one element considered when determining a horse's greatness. The fact that Smarty actually picked up his feet and ran in that slop (while horses like Birdstone and Borrego didn't bother running a step) seems like a valid and important point in favor of those that argue he is in fact "great."

1) Barbaro
2) Curlin
3) Smarty Jones
4) Afleet Alex
5) Last and least....Bernardini.

Are you:
a) joking
b) intentionally trying to piss me off
c) stoned
or
d) out of your mind?

I'm not knocking Smarty Jones for his nice win in the Derby but the wet track prevented anyone else from running a step. Yeah, it's a knock on them, and a credit to Smarty Jones, but that was far from a truly run race.

i agree with you on this as well. i thought bellamy roads wood was an astounding performance. some would say what did he do after-but his race before the wood was awesome as well. then he was injured in the derby, but then came back and showed tremendous ability and willingness in the travers. made we wish for more.
such a shame that he was unable to come back after that.

This promotion pales in comparison to the opening day 50 cent corned beef sandwiches...

When he did his form seemed to elevate.

Dominating Dr. Fager and winning the Travers by a pole in a jog.

But - I know you know that.

Of those five - only Afleet Alex has so far managed to hit the double digit mark in career starts.

While Curlin isn't yet retired - not a single one of those five have so much as started in a race a year from the day of their debut.

Of those five - none have managed to win a Horse of the Year title - though Curlin will in a few weeks - and he will do so in one of the sadest years of recent memory for the older male division.

Candy Ride obviously never won a Triple Crown race - but his career would fit very well with those five otherwise.

Obviously a spectacular talent - but one with a very sexy resume if you get past the fact he never won a Championship and was very lightly raced.

Retiring undefeated and as a two surface sensation.

* Turf: winning two Group 1 turf races in South America by tremendous margins in big fields - setting a world record in one of those wins. In his only American turf start - he won a Grade 2 stake - the 2nd place finisher won a Grade 1 by 5 lengths in course record time next out.

* Dirt: Setting a track record in a 123 Beyer Pacific Classic win with Krone up - where Bailey was allowed to get Medeglia D' Oro a cozy lead and the favorable trip - but he just got drowned by a much better horse that day. A future Japan Cup Dirt winner and a two-time Big Cap winner a distant 3rd and 4th.

Barbaro also won six times in his life, 3 on grass, 3 on dirt, without ever really losing. However, I believe Barbaro compares very unfavorably with Candy Ride.

In Barbaro's case -

Dirt: he only has one big race on dirt. the Kentucky Derby. He got a dream trip in that Derby, while his two main rivals in the betting (the subsequntly awful Sweetnorthernsaint & Brother Derek) had awful trips in very poor showings. Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer made the Tri in that race. Inspite of the perfect stalking trip - Barbaro's Beyer was 111 - only two points above par for the avg winning Derby figure - and 3 points below Funny Cide's similar trip Preakness figure! His other two dirt wins - he had future bad claimer Great Point close to him...and he won a stretch duel with Sharp Humor.

Turf: While he had the look of a future can't miss superstar as a turf horse, only one of his three turf wins was a Graded Stake - a 3 3/4 length Grade 3 Stakes win over Wise River.

Out of the five horses you mentioned - I'd probably say the best performance ever turned in was Smarty Jones' in his Preakness win. Very slightly over Curlin's Breeders Cup Classic win and Bernardini's Classic 2nd place.

I don't think Smarty and Alex could have got Bernie out of a jog.

If I remember correctly, Smarty's top lifetime BSF was a 118, a number that I am pretty sure Bernardini never reached. In the race he posted that 118 he blew away RH10, Eddington, Borrego, and Lion Heart....4 horses that are probably better than any horse Bernardini ever faced - except of course for Invasor who beat him.
If people think that Bernardini was better than Smarty.....fine. He was certainly a quality colt. But to say that Smarty couldn't "have got Bernie out of a jog" again demonstrates that despite Bernardini's considerable talent, he is probably the most overrated horse in quite some time.