That is the real problem here. What do the tracks have to gain by spending money investigating it? They are only going to do it if they feel enough pressure to do so.

turn more water into whine?

I realize Cannon is a decent guy. I also know he usually seems to be very pro bettor. This is why I guess I let the "get over it" comment bug me. I should have dropped it, but I didn't. It is all part of my overall frustration with the poor technology in the sport. Tote technology, timing (including run ups), horrible chart calls, poor drug testing, ridiculous online betting situation, etc.

I shouldn't have stooped to anything personal. The bobsledding thing pissed me off since Cannon knows nothing about me or why I'm in Belgium, and it had nothing to do with anything. I suppose it was funny at some level I guess. I reacted poorly. Oh well, time to move on.

I would guess, and I'm saying guess, that there are far more fixed races than any problem with a sticky stop betting button. It's nice for all the editorial comments here but hard to see any conclusion that will really manner.

In a sport that is given life by people's opinions, it so entertaining to read views on any particular subject here as all of us handicap life differently.

For me the biggest issue in the sport today is me winning the next damn race. That, and the blatant discrimination against 6 foot tall jockeys...it's a shame.

But what do I know?

Spyder

Just stop the wagering @ 3-5min b4 post. All wagers should be in by the start of the race. If a bettor can't get his/her wager in by that time, sorry should bet earlier. I've been shut out @ the windows many of times by waiting until the last second. Just my opinion

Instead of 3-5 minutes before, perhaps we should bet all the races before the 1st post. Better yet, if one of your horse scratches you just lose your entire wager.

I think that if you read my posts in the original thread you would see that I said if it is happening all the time or someone is gaining an advantage than it is a big problem. Instead of reacting negatively to one comment like you guys did at the time and again yesterday. Perhaps I was wrongly assuming that the incident was an isolated case as was explained to me not only in the print media but by an exec at a major track related to the situation. Obviously it is happening at a greater frequency than first realized but I still have a hard time believing that tracks can tie individual tickets to players and chase down uncashed tickets through wagering accounts but cant definitively tell you that the pools are closed on time.

I will say that the attitude towards the horsemen and women on this site and others by bettors is troublesome. The relationship is a symbiotic one where each side cant exist without the other. Andy has said on many occasions that he feels that we are all in this together which I totally agree with. I was exposed to this sport at a young age through gambling (which in itself may be troubling) and I realize the importance of the dedication and tenacity of a group of hard core players that keeps the revenues flowing through the windows despite the long list of issues and little voice to speak for them. I realize as do many other horsemen that we need you guys to keep the sport alive. But you need us too. You need the thousands of people who dedicate their lives to putting on the show, most for a pittance. You need the thousands of owners that invest in horseflesh knowing that the odds of them breaking even are long and making money are even further remote. Your pick 4 investment may be an hour long deal for you but when I buy a yearling I am investing not only the purchase price of the horse but tens of thousands of dollars in expenses and in some cases years of time. To say that we should not have an interest in artificial surfaces because they are hard to handicap is wrong. Finding joy in horses getting injured because it 'proves' you were 'right' is wrong. We didn't invent these surfaces but we have to deal with them just as you do. Not all of our horses handle it and it is a major pain in the ass when that happens. Maybe bettors are pissed off when the tracks made the change without regard for them but Keeneland didn't give us a vote and probably wouldn't have listened anyway. As I said before the condescending attitude that as a bettor you are paying my salary is just bs. Try telling the state policeman giving you a ticket, that you pay his salary via taxes and he must listen to you. You are playing the for the same reason that we are owning and training, to make money. I dont buy horses to provide entertainment for you to wager on just as you dont wager to provide purses for me. So at least respect the fact that to some the welfare of the horses in their care, in many cases their friends, means as much to them as wagering security and clean racing means to you. Sorry for the ramble and the bobsled and waffle boy remarks.

I agree with nearly everything you say. We definitely are in this together, no doubt. I'll try to remember that from now on. I think the thing is, we all put our self interests first naturally.

As for the synthetic stuff, I don't think I've ever taken joy in a horse getting injured. I know I haven't. I don't like synthetics as a fan of the sport. As a bettor, at least now, I'm actually loving it. But that is neither here nor there.

The only points I ever brought up about poly (or the other stuff) were to refute the ridiculous propaganda that was shoved down bettor's throats (and horsemen) with no proof whatsoever for months. Most of it, in fact, has been proven false or at the very least remains nothing but conjecture. Somehow, if you mentioned the races were boring and uninspiring, that meant you hated horses and didn't care if they were hurt, which is nonsense.

Fair enough.

Typical of the industry.....an expert testifies that the system is inadequate, something we all know, and he's attacked by a high ranking figure in racing security.

If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

kill the messenger

I really have no desire to go over that whole debate again, but in fairness to those involved, I think it should be pointed out that people were not, as you seem to indicate, calling the individual you mentioned "a racist." People were labeling a picture that individual posted as "racist."
There is a significant difference there.

after all of this, i still can't figure how the bettor gets screwed?
either you are picking winners or not. maybe you lose a tick on the odds, but i could sit there all day and bet horses after they break and still not have a clue.
does it matter if someone wants to drop $5g's when a horse is 4-1 or 3-1?
i don't know, i would just like to see where it actually hurts the majority (or rather the winning minority)?

Oh boy.

i'm not being facetious, really. just would like someone to explain it in simple kindergarten terms for me.
thanks

i know its early in the year, but we may have already seen the post of the year for 2008.

It's a little like having to explain why you get wet if you go out in the rain. Honestly, you have to figure some things out for yourself. Sort of like the ADW struggle that went on earlier this year, and was talked about endlessly on this site, and every Horse Racing message board, which made it clear why Youbet wasn't going to be carrying Gulfstream ( as well as what happened subsequently that enabled them to carry Santa Anita ). Sometimes you have to read the threads to get the info and not expect things to be explained when you randomly don't understand something.

I haven't had a drop of liquor in two years but tonight that's coming to an end. I just can't take this anymore.

have your fun. but i do understand.
i was just trying to make the point that when it does happen, it's a minority of people(winners) that are affected.

That's a terrible attitude in general.

Oh, well in that case, I guess it isn't a problem at all.
End of thread.

True but that was a fairly hostile exchange which was what I was referring to. BTW that Indian horse has really taken America by storm. LOL

How many times have you tried to bet past post time?

Just called in on Trackfacts live and asked the question as to how to remedy this situation. One suggestion Tom Amello had was to refund the race. Sounds good, but is it realistic? How long after this happens do the stewards realize this "glitch" occured? Is it well after the race has been paid?

That doesn't sound like one of Tom's more well thought out answers.

It's time to take a stand. I will not be betting today in protest!!

(this has nothing to do with getting my ass handed to me in yesterday's wagering)

Who else is with me?

(imagine the sound of crickets chirping)

You know how us teachers can be.:D

He did kind of just throw it out there. Seth Morrow was on as a guest and they had no callers on the line, so I thought I'd a throw them a bone to chew on. Nobody (Nick, Tom or Seth) came up with a real good remedy other than shutting down betting a few minutes before post. They did however thank the caller for an excellent question.

The answer is very simple....spend the necessary dollars to update the system. That's the answer. It's up to the racetracks to give this the serious attention it needs.

Not to defend NYRA per se, but at least they said the right things the other day and were up front about it. However, if they don't change the system then it's just more lip service.

When Steve had John Lee on the show the other day, he repeated the information about only $80 or so dollars being bet on track after the race started. He perhaps conveniently left out the rest of the story, that they had no idea how much if any money came in outside of Aqueduct itself.
Which, when you think about it, doesn't make much sense (this information certainly could have been obtained).

I don't think John is a duplicitous guy and probably was simply giving the only information they had for sure.

It may or may not be " easy " to find out what betting from off-track was after the bell. The final money that comes in is probably batched so knowing at exactly what moment it was actually bet might be problematic. This would be yet another reason they have to insure that no money can come in after the bell.

I don't know this for certain, but I think every wager is time-stamped, or certainly could be (if it isn't this would go in the category of updating the technology).

I can understand why John Lee would have only stated what he knew. In his situation, I probably would've done the same thing.

Actually, although my memory may be failing me, I don't remember that exchange being all that hostile. At least I don't think the disagreement betwen the two of us (which I think was the main one in that thread) was hostile at all. You and I took exactly the oppositie positions on that one, but I thought our argument, while certainly vigorous, never degenerated into name-calling or needless hostility. I know I didn't come away from it with any ill-feelings.
I assume that must be because we are both such amazingly wonderful people.

It wasn't really that bad considering the potential of the topic, no ill will or feelings held.

The funny thing is that they (tracks in general) will sink money into synthetic tracks with no thought at all because they think it will save them money but wont spend the money to update the tote system or force the tote companies to modernize.

Well, I guess this helps feed the horseplayer's paranoia.