Fair enough. I cant say that I agree with you on this but I do get where you are coming from. Though I thought the 6th man analogy was accurate as if he was as talented he would be starting.

I just think that because turf and dirt are so distinctly different that to say a top turf sprinter is not talented enough to compete on dirt is like saying that a horse like GW is not talented enough to compete on the dirt. It wasn't that GW wasnt talented enough, it was he wasn't a dirt horse. There are a thousand Danehill stakes winners and not one of them is on the dirt. It would be hard to fathom that there isn't a horse by Danehill or another top turf sire that would not be a legit turf sprinter. The only reason that there isnt a tradition of top class turf sprinters in this country is that the tracks simply did not write the races. I believe that if you write enough quality stakes you will get a competitive division with talented horses. I have passed on horses at Tattersalles simply because there were no shorter races for them over here and I did not want to be screwed if they did not stretch out. The fact is that the dirt sprint division is been so weak in recent years that you might see some crossover from the turf sprint stakes to the dirt sprint.

If the BC and stakes committee are one in the same it is awfully interesting that they are denying the BC graded status.

It is hard to follow how the Breeders Cup is to blame for The Makers Mark, Just A Game or First Lady being upgraded. If any race deserves an upgrade it is the Makers MArk. Run in April, the last 3 year it was won by the future BC mile winner in Kip Deville, Miesques Approval and Artie Schiller. The First Lady gets a grade 1 field every year. The Just a Game is a race in June with little BC implications.

Which is kind of my point. If there were more opportunities than the talent level would rise proportionally. You would also see more imported sprinters though with the dollar as weak as it is only the mega wealthy could do it. It would also diversify the stallion ranks eventually which would be a positive for the sport in general.

That is absolutely untrue. The fact is that many of our top stallions like Mr. Greely are exactly that. You dont know it because there aren't any races here for them to show it. Mizzen Mast is another sire who has the ability to get a really good turf sprinter and himself was a grade 1 winner on the dirt despite being by Cozzene.

And horses like Midnight Lute can only sprint on the dirt but we dont call him limited or untalented

I hear you, it was the same point I was making about the Juvenile Turf when they first added it. If you make the race the preps will develop. I saw the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo already jumped to G3 as a result of the BC Juvy Turf. The combo of the BC Juvy Turf and synthetic surfaces has to give a lot more incentive to breed for the turf. I don't have a problem with the race, just don't see the need for $1 million unless they can become part of the international series and draw top foreign horses to it. The current top horses in that division are the ones that can't cut it anywhere else so I don't see them as needing a championship.

Yeah, but Mr Greeley is throwing runners in all divisions on all continents, he isn't just throwing turf sprinters out there. Maybe his horses would be best in turf sprints but the top ones don't run in them cause there is nothing to gain there.

I believe the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo used to be grade 3's

The Breeders Cup is not a real championship. Winning the race does not make you a champion or guarantee an eclipse.

He is a better turf sire and he can get a really good sprinter. There are a lot of horses that are bred to be turf sprinters but like you said there are no opportunities for them. There is no reason that turf horses should not have a sprinting division. There really isn't.

I'm pretty sure they were before dropping off to ungraded cause 2yo turf racing was considered irrelevant.

Don't let NTRA hear you say that.

I think it was becaue they cut the purses or moved them to Aquecuct or something.

Of course they are one in the same. Look at the names of the BC-BoD and the TOBA-GSC. Same people. They are going to do what is in their own interest. This year it was bumping up those turf races while maintaining G 1 status for EVERY existing G 1.

I have no problem with bumping races up. I do have a problem with not bumping races down. And they don't bump some of the deserving-to-be-bumped-down G1's because that takes $$ out of their pocket or the pocket of one of their friends.

Can you imagine the ill-mannered looks that would be shot around the room if Stamps, Dinnie or whoever just won a race or cut a stud deal for a horse that won a G 1 that just got cut down? The horror!!

And when it comes time to throw one of the children out of the boat and actually bump down a G 1, you can bet it will be a Cali or Gulfstream race that goes down.

I could not agree more.. A lot to do about absolutely nothing..

Look at it this way...perhaps people we race, breed, and train for the new races and designations. How is that bad? Is it a bit backward I guess ,but who really cares.

Which G1s do you think should have been dropped down?

That's easy. The Prioress has been the worst Grade 1 about 4 years running. I think this year was the first time in years a horse went into the race with a triple digit Beyer on their resume.

It is 3yo fillies sprinting in early July. How often do 3yo fillies ever break 100 Beyer by that point? The race brings together the best 3yo filly sprinters. Isn't bringing together the best what defines a G1?

Wild Gams, who was second in 2006, disproves that.

Did Wild Gams have a 100 Beyer going into the Prioress? I'd be surpised if she did.

As for the earlier comment above by Sniper, why do 3YO filly sprinters need a Grade 1? This race is a prep for the Test, which is a borderline Grade 1 at best; probably no more worthy of Grade 2. In 2006 an Illinois bred who was off the board in her previous race, an Illinois bred stake, ran 2nd in the Test. As for the Prioress, you see horses like Acey Deucey win and you know the race is a fraud. If there's a way to go back and check out pps from the race, go do it and you will be very underwhelmed. Take away the winner from the race this year and is a rich FNW2X. I've railed on this race for years and the graded stakes committee is stupid for not downgrading it.

Out of curiousity, which one of these two options would you be more inclined to bet $10K on......that I'm right or that I looked it up to make 100% sure I was right?

So what did she get, a 100 going against a 5 horse field at Delaware? I never considered Wild Gams to be the next coming of Ruffian......what happened to her in the Filly Mare Sprint?

It doesn't change my point; the race is totally unworthy of Grade 1 status and deserves no more than Grade 3 status.

My my, apparently you don't like being wrong here. She earned her 100 plus Beyer figure with an extremely impressive stakes victory in NY.

You were wrong. We all are pretty often. Deal with it.

The problem with the Prioress is that it is typically run about a week or two before the Azalea Stakes on Calder's Summit of Speed card - and the Azalea has a bigger purse. The competition dilutes both races. I agree with those who say that the Prioress - often viewed as a prep for the Test - is not worthy of its Grade I status; however, the Test is annually one of the best races of the Saratoga meet and fully deserving of its status.

Furthermore, if you actually looked over the names of Prioress winners in the last 20 years you would see a host of Grade 1 horses winning ( and also hitting the board ). If you want to say the entire ratings system is screwed up I can understand but this race has many Grade 1 quality winners by today's standards.

Here's a few names for you......Carson Hollow, Xtra Heat, Marley Vale ( second ), Hurricane Bertie, Capote Belle, Heavenly Prize ( second ), Classy Mirage and Safely Kept.

Off the top of my head, a few that deserve to be looked at might include
-Carter
-Gulf PArk Breeders
-Del Mar Fut
-Del Mar Deb
-Brooklyn
-Hollywood Derby
-Oak Leaf

I'm tempted toss in the Cigar on the basis of Naughty New Yorker earning a G1 placing being just cause.

I'm not saying I personally would bump then down; I just can't see how they rationalize the need for a greater number of Grade 1 races.

The Brooklyn has been a grade 2 for years.

I don't agree about the Carter at all and think you need to look at the fields overall again. One or two mediocre runnings doesn't downgrade a race of that kind of status and longevity.

Can anyone hear explain why they want to continue adding BC races? Why does everything in our country have to be ruined by this "you know we have a great product here, but if we make it bigger it will be better."

I've been betting the Breeder's Cup since 1989 and have had a blast doing it.
Whether you choose to attend it, go someplace to watch it, or just enjoy the comfort of your own chair or couch, it's the best day in horse racing.
I was able to stomach the extra day this year, but to add more races on top of this is just simply moronic.

This "supersize me" culture we live in with Super Bowl Sunday pre-games that start 12 hours before the game and World Series that you have to stay up half the night to watch is just sports in general. Now it looks like the BC wants to tinker with what seems to have worked well since it's inception.

The Gulfstream Park Breeders should definitely be the first one downgraded.

I don't agree with the others aside from the Brooklyn which is already G2.

The only reason to downgrade the Del Mar 2yo races is cause they are now irrelevant with the poly playing so different from the cushion.

I agree that several of these were very talented fillies, although most of them were relatively unaccomplished at the time that they ran in the Prioress. My problem with the grades assigned is that too much emphasis is often given to the winner without looking at the overall quality of the field. (This goes against the point I just made, but since 2000, the Prioress winners have included the rather undistinguished I'm Brassy, House Party, Friendly Michelle, Acey Deucey and Wildcat Bettie B.) In many cases, even the years when there were first-class winners of the race, the field was not much more than a glorified NW2X allowance, as opposed to the Test which is like a "summit-meeting" of top 3YO fillies and which connections have long pointed their fillies.


Without regard to history our marketing by the tracks, here are a few grade Is that have fallen on hard times in recent years and should have their status reconsidered, IMO:

Alcibiades (maiden winners the past two years), Ancient Title (short fields on a BC prep weekend when many top sprinters use the Vosburgh or go in fresh), Clement Hirsch Turf (just not a strong race, perhaps due to its 10F distance with BC in a few weeks), DeFrancis Dash (post-BC impact), Gazelle (always a short field and just a few weeks after the Alabama), Gulfstream Park BC Turf (a grade I turf race on the East Coast so early in the season is questionable, at best), Lady's Secret, Sword Dancer (diluted by competition with Arlington Million), and Vanity. There are also a number of those older filly and mare races on the West Coast whose names I often confuse whose grading are undeserved.

Oops on the Brooklyn. Fair enough on the Carter (Bishop Court Hill winning was one thing; winning at 3-1 is another). By the same token and logic, just tossing a million bucks out and calling a race a Breeders Cup "championship" does not merit immediate or accelerated G 1 status.

I readily admit I am well beyond logic and reason when it comes to the BC and proliferation of diluted G 1 races.

Then I guess there should be no 2YO Grade 1 races anymore ( save perhaps the BC ) as there are few early NW1X races anymore for 2YOs and most of these races are won by maiden breakers.

But, that's just more fuel for the " there are too many Grade 1s " argument.

I could argue both sides on the Prioress. I guess the bottom line is that it's the only Grade 1 at 6F restricted to 3YO fillies and the division probably deserves at least one race.

Based on the Bishop Court Hill running it should be moved to the Claiming Crown.

I'm not necessarily saying that. I have no problem with races like the Hopeful, Del Mar Futurity and Champagne having grade I status. Whether populated by maiden-breakers or not, these races typically draw the "best" maiden-breakers of the lot (i.e., Maimonides and Majestic Warrior this year, and horses like Sky Mesa in the past) and are often "championship-type" races, while the "second-tier" maiden breakers often go elsewhere for a softer spot (Sapling, Futurity). I think there is a big difference between the analysis needed for a 2YO stakes race and that for a mid-summer race for
3YOs, of either gender.

I know you weren't saying that....sorry. I was just more trying to point out that stakes have replaced allowance races in many divisions.

How many of those names won in recent years? Yeah, Safely Kept was a monster but that was what, 1989 or 1990? The bottom line is this race has been putrid in recent years and if it was run in any other state besides NY or California, it would be a Grade 3.

I don't agree with you and the results don't back up your " putrid " comments. But, to each his own.

So then you think Michael Finley is more talented and important to the Spurs than Manu Ginobili is? There are other examples of players that come off of the bench and are more talented than starters but the best fit for the team is to have them coming off of the bench to maybe be that anchor for the second unit or to give their team a bigger advantage over the other teams bench. Chicago did much better when Ben Gordon was a sixth man instead of a starter. Remember Rickey Pierce in Milwaukee? I believe he made the all-star team coming off of the bench, as Ginobili probably will this season.

My personal opinion is that no race that is universally agreed is a prep for another race should be on equal standing, grade wise, as the main event. I personally don't feel that any of the main Kentucky Derby preps (SA Derby, FL Derby, AR Derby, Blue Grass, Wood) should be grade ones. I think they should be dropped to grade two and the preps for those races should be grade three and so on down the line.

People might do everything possible not to breed a horse to be a turf sprinter in North America.

But if the Breeders' Cup is going to truly evolve into a "World Championship of Racing" as they bill theirselves, a big race for turf sprinters only makes sense.

A turf sprinting mare just won HOTY in Australia. You think they were disappointed she couldn't go long?