Derby Trail Forums

Derby Trail Forums (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/index.php)
-   The Paddock (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Best 2 year old ever POLL!!! (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9877)

Cannon Shell 02-15-2007 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
If you have a list that doesn't have Native Dancer in the top 2 of all time great 2 year olds then you need to familiarize your self with the Grey Ghost.

I said top 2 because he may not have been the best but he certainly shouldn't be worse than 2nd.

I guess Man o war would have to be considered also.

Antitrust32 02-15-2007 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
I guess Man o war would have to be considered also.


Oh, he is no Favorite Trick! ;)

Phalaris1913 02-15-2007 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
Phalaris -
Do you have more information on Barbizon?

Also, the crop of 1958 with First Landing and Intenionally was that overall pretty outstanding?

The foal crop of 1954 - which included Bold Ruler, Round Table and Gallant Man, as well as Gen. Duke, thought by some to be better than any of them - is considered by many to be one of the best in modern racing. If you look at a list of the thoroughbred champions, you'll see that the champion 2YO of 1956 was not any of these but instead was Barbizon.

If the 1956 season had ended on October 26, that would not have been the case. On the evening of that date, Bold Ruler had won seven of eight starts, including the one-time champion maker, the Belmont Futurity; Barbizon had never even run in a true stakes event. But on Oct. 27, the picture changed. Bold Ruler had a disastrous outing in the Garden State, running up on the heels of another horse and finishing 17th, while Barbizon won. An effort to redeem his season in the Remsen further damaged Bold Ruler's reputation, as he reared at the start and was eased. At season's end, Bold Ruler had failed to be effective in a race longer than six and a half furlongs while Barbizon was five for six and had won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile of his day.

Barbizon never won another stakes race. In fact, the only time he ever again placed in a stakes race was in the Hutcheson. He ran in the FOY, Jersey (then Jersey Stakes, a 9f dirt race of significance run between the Preakness and Belmont), Kent, Leonard Richards, Laurance Armour and Arlington Classic as a 3YO, unplaced every time and never beaten less than seven lengths, and was unplaced in two stakes outings at 4 before his career ended.

First Landing won 10 of 11 starts at 2, including six stakes races at distances ranging from five furlongs to 1 1/16 miles. His only defeat as a 2YO was to Intentionally, who was first or second in 9 of 11 starts and won three stakes. Also among the best 2YOs of that crop was Tomy Lee, who won six of eight starts - unbeaten in six starts in California (four stakes after beginning his career on Jan. 7) and second under the wire in two starts back East: second by a neck to First Landing in the Champagne (though DQ'd to third for fouling Intentionally) and second by a head in the Garden State. Sword Dancer, future classic winner and HOY at 3, was third in the Garden State.

First Landing, Tomy Lee and Sword Dancer showed up for the classics, with Tomy Lee winning the Derby, with Sword Dancer second and First Landing third. Sword Dancer, as mentioned, had the best year in 1959: was subsequently second in the Preakness, and won six of his remaining seven starts at 3: the Met Mile, Belmont, Monmouth Handicap, Travers, Woodward and JCGC. First Landing was relatively off-and-on after his 2YO season, not dominating but usually running credibly and winning another nine races before the end of his 4YO season. Intentionally, champion sprinter of 1959, was steered clear of the classics and ran as late as 1962, finishing unplaced only twice in 20 dirt starts at 3 and beyond.

Cannon Shell 02-15-2007 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913
The foal crop of 1954 - which included Bold Ruler, Round Table and Gallant Man, as well as Gen. Duke, thought by some to be better than any of them - is considered by many to be one of the best in modern racing. If you look at a list of the thoroughbred champions, you'll see that the champion 2YO of 1956 was not any of these but instead was Barbizon.

If the 1956 season had ended on October 26, that would not have been the case. On the evening of that date, Bold Ruler had won seven of eight starts, including the one-time champion maker, the Belmont Futurity; Barbizon had never even run in a true stakes event. But on Oct. 27, the picture changed. Bold Ruler had a disastrous outing in the Garden State, running up on the heels of another horse and finishing 17th, while Barbizon won. An effort to redeem his season in the Remsen further damaged Bold Ruler's reputation, as he reared at the start and was eased. At season's end, Bold Ruler had failed to be effective in a race longer than six and a half furlongs while Barbizon was five for six and had won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile of his day.

Barbizon never won another stakes race. In fact, the only time he ever again placed in a stakes race was in the Hutcheson. He ran in the FOY, Jersey (then Jersey Stakes, a 9f dirt race of significance run between the Preakness and Belmont), Kent, Leonard Richards, Laurance Armour and Arlington Classic as a 3YO, unplaced every time and never beaten less than seven lengths, and was unplaced in two stakes outings at 4 before his career ended.

First Landing won 10 of 11 starts at 2, including six stakes races at distances ranging from five furlongs to 1 1/16 miles. His only defeat as a 2YO was to Intentionally, who was first or second in 9 of 11 starts and won three stakes. Also among the best 2YOs of that crop was Tomy Lee, who won six of eight starts - unbeaten in six starts in California (four stakes after beginning his career on Jan. 7) and second under the wire in two starts back East: second by a neck to First Landing in the Champagne (though DQ'd to third for fouling Intentionally) and second by a head in the Garden State. Sword Dancer, future classic winner and HOY at 3, was third in the Garden State.

First Landing, Tomy Lee and Sword Dancer showed up for the classics, with Tomy Lee winning the Derby, with Sword Dancer second and First Landing third. Sword Dancer, as mentioned, had the best year in 1959: was subsequently second in the Preakness, and won six of his remaining seven starts at 3: the Met Mile, Belmont, Monmouth Handicap, Travers, Woodward and JCGC. First Landing was relatively off-and-on after his 2YO season, not dominating but usually running credibly and winning another nine races before the end of his 4YO season. Intentionally, champion sprinter of 1959, was steered clear of the classics and ran as late as 1962, finishing unplaced only once twice in 20 dirt starts at 3 and beyond.

Thanks for the info!!

Sightseek 02-15-2007 01:05 PM

Thank you very much for addressing my questions :)

horseofcourse 02-15-2007 01:07 PM

Thanks Phalaris and I agree with your assessment of Favorite Trick compared to the past 2 yr old greats...but my feeling stands that in the last 10 or even 15 years what Favorite Trick did at 2 stands alone in this day of 2, 3 or 4 race campaigns for 2 yr olds. His 8 for 8 year winning some of the biggest races offered to 2 yr olds, including the biggest one is very unique in today's racing industry.

If you can find me a better more accomplished 2 yr old since 1990, go ahead. And that is some people's here only frame of reference.

KirisClown 02-15-2007 01:08 PM

I know she's not the best but...

The one that excited me most was... Flanders...

Kasept 02-15-2007 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirisClown
The one that excited me most was... Flanders...



OR


Cannon Shell 02-15-2007 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse
Thanks Phalaris and I agree with your assessment of Favorite Trick compared to the past 2 yr old greats...but my feeling stands that in the last 10 or even 15 years what Favorite Trick did at 2 stands alone in this day of 2, 3 or 4 race campaigns for 2 yr olds. His 8 for 8 year winning some of the biggest races offered to 2 yr olds, including the biggest one is very unique in today's racing industry.

If you can find me a better more accomplished 2 yr old since 1990, go ahead. And that is some people's here only frame of reference.

He should be applauded for his accomplishments as a 2 yo but this thread was about the best ever not just the last 15 years.

Cannon Shell 02-15-2007 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept


OR


option #2 for sure

Phalaris1913 02-15-2007 01:30 PM

That 1994 Juvey Fillies margin may not be quite as visually exciting as the 21-length victory in the Frizette (against, admittedly, the sort of horses that a really good horse should be beating by a city block), but given the four-length margin back to third and the caliber of the horse in such hot pursuit, it impresses me more in retrospect. Serena's Song was already a G1-caliber winner and after this race, she won nine of her next 11 starts (nine of nine at less than 10 furlongs), including the Jim Beam and and Haskell. There's a hidden accomplishment in there that usually isn't recognized: after finishing 16th in the Derby after setting the pace (stablemates Thunder Gulch and Timber Country finished first and third), she was back 13 days later, demolishing ordinary 3YO fillies in the Black-Eyed Susan by nine lengths. It's been my general observation that a lot of good, speedy fillies seem to lose something mentally and/or physically after a thumping defeat, but Serena's Song, at her best, was like a tank.

horseofcourse 02-15-2007 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
He should be applauded for his accomplishments as a 2 yo but this thread was about the best ever not just the last 15 years.

Of course, he isn't the best 2 yr old ever...but in all honesty, I would have no trouble with anyone placing him on a top 20 of all time juvy list. He certainly needs to be in this discussion of all time best 2 yr olds even if not the ultimate number 1.

somerfrost 02-15-2007 01:58 PM

Interesting thread and lots of good horses mentioned but really, only one mention of the greatest horse of all...Secretariat??? He has to be number one at two...certainly Colin, Native Dancer and many others were special but Secretariat is the gold standard! Favorite Trick was a wonderful two year old and deserves mention...and another one who has to be on any list...Count Fleet!

Danzig 02-15-2007 02:18 PM

colins perfect 12 for 12 season, including a record of .58 for 5 f, would be the gold standard.
count fleet and native dancer also deserve mention.

prudery 02-15-2007 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept
Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

And '57 was THE crop. Best ever...

No, it was 1956---the birth year of First Landing, Tomy Lee, Sword Dancer, Royal Orbit , etc ... Colin's grandpa Domino was also a stellar 2. A recent two, outstanding against her own was Meadow Star. The Bid also had a busy and excellent year at two .

KirisClown 02-15-2007 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept


OR


This Flanders....

Maiden:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOvHU_XXdzA

Matron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBLTrlHKlfg

Bc Juv Fillies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MlRMUAmxmU

somerfrost 02-15-2007 02:32 PM

Of course Kincsem was 10-10 running in ten different cities in three different countries...on my list she would be second to Secretariat with Colin third.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.