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-   -   CONTESSA: "..wanted to throw up" (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8729)

kentuckyrosesinmay 01-12-2007 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Are you honestly this clueless? Do you think because I don't litter my posts with names that I don't know a LOT of people in the industry?
No, I am not clueless. Not at all. In fact, I will PM you to show you that. And remember our PM conversation about Flower Alley a little while back? That should have shown you that I'm not clueless.

kentuckyrosesinmay 01-12-2007 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
This is completely irrelevent. You made an idiotic remark about my talking to jockeys, as if to suggest I was lying, which was completely out of line. Nobody referenced, or cares, as to whether or not you know anybody in this game.
Well, you made an unnecessary remark to me the other day that was meant to be condescending. I didn't do anything to provoke that kind of a response. It really doesn't matter who I know in this game. It isn't important. That is why I don't name shoot. And just because I have a friend that knows Matz is not a big of a deal and shouldn't have provoked that kind of a response from you the other day.

I was playfully joking as a response to your remark the other day. Lighten up a bit. Have a bit of fun.

blackthroatedwind 01-12-2007 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I was playfully joking as a response to your remark the other day. Lighten up a bit. Have a bit of fun.
Now I should lighten up?

Actually...I am enjoying myself immensely. But hey, thanks for the condescension.

kentuckyrosesinmay 01-12-2007 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Now I should lighten up?

Actually...I am enjoying myself immensely. But hey, thanks for the condescension.
Actually, if you knew me, all I do is joke and play around except for when it comes to my work and my studies.

And I know you are enjoying yourself because you got me by the throat on this particular topic of Ramon's ride.

Coach Pants 01-12-2007 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Yeah, why? It was just two simple questions that you're avoiding answering.
Disagreeing on this issue doesn't mean I don't like you. If I didn't like you I would take my toys and go home. I'd also probably throw a few and sit on the front porch and pout.

eurobounce 01-12-2007 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Now that we have the riding instructions and the trainer comments, then I admit that Ramon made a bad decision.

However, what Ramon thought would happen about the hole opening up was what I said in the other thread that he thought would happen. He just made the wrong decision that didn't pay off this time. A lot of other times, it would have proven to be the right decision as a hole would have opened. If the hole would have opened, no one would have been complaining about his ride.
I agree. RD didnt follow instructions at all. Therefore, it was a bad ride. I understand RD's thinking, but he has to follow directions or be 100% positive that he is able to get the rail.

ninetoone 01-12-2007 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Not looking to reopen yesterday's volatile discussion of Dominguez' performance on Daytime Promise Thursday at Aqueduct, but I did just get off the phone with Gary Contessa...

The Q and A:

INSTRUCTIONS TO RAMON?
"She prefers to be outside horses anyway, so I told him to sit off and just make one run on the outside."


THOUGHTS DURING THE STRETCH RUN?
"I wanted to throw up.. It's the human side of the game. You do everything you can to prepare a horse and then you get one of the worst performances of the guy's career.. maybe THE worst."


WHAT DID HE SAY AFTER?
"He apologized over and over.. He said 'I can only tell you I'm sorry.'"


WHAT DID HE TELL YOU HE WAS THINKING?
"He said that when they came off the turn he was sure the rail horse was going to float wide and take the other one with him and that he would have the rail to boot home. He said the jock on the rail horse was using both hands to hold left on his horse as if the horse was trying to bear out so he thought the rail would open up."

Steve,

I wish you would have asked one more question...

"Would you hesitate to use Ramon as a rider in the future?"

I'd venture to say the answer would be "no"....

ManilaRose 01-12-2007 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
how about we consider the idea that Ramon was trying to look like hot sh*t and his plan backfired...and then he had to go cover his sorry ride with an angry trainer...whose instructions he failed to follow.
not too different than a child who makes a bad decision and then tries to lie to mom and dad...
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what he was thinking. Nothing makes you look more like "hot sh*t" than coming up the rail to win a race. lol

2MinsToPost 01-12-2007 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
This nonsense about not being able to evaluate the ride without knowing the trainers's instructions really needs to stop. Anyone that knows the first thing about watching a race knew that what Ramon did yesterday was inexcusable. Are you trying to suggest that the trainer could have told him to find the path of MOST resistance?

It was a bad ride, that you defended yesterday, and were wrong. You were " blaming others " in that you were suggesting those of us that called it a bad ride were in any way out of line. We were not only NOT out of line....we were 100% correct.
Stole a line I was going to use Andy. I was thinking about the comparison between a horse and electricity -

electricity follows the path of least resistance

what path did Ramon guide that mount;)

cmorioles 01-12-2007 03:53 PM
The whole instructions things is a joke anyway. When the gate opens, nothing is really that predictable. Personally, I would say just trust the jockey to do the right thing given the circumstances. If I didn't trust him, why is he on my horse?

Downthestretch55 01-12-2007 04:36 PM
I should keep my mouth shut.
I should keep my mouth shut.
I should keep my mouth shut.
100X

I can't resist.
Steve's post said it.
Yes, we all make mistakes. Excuses are for losers doncha know?
Winners don't need to create them, cause they won.
Yes, RD shoulda, coulda, woulda followed instructions. No question.
Did he blow a race that this one had been trained to? No question.
So, ask yourself after reading what he said back to Contessa in Steve's first post, if you saw a jock working on his horse, both hands, and expected that it would come out, where would you go? In other words, if they were going to go wide and open a hole inside, where do you think you'd take your horse?
Decisions on the track are made in a blink. Sometimes they look brilliant, and sometimes they look like a complete and total F-up.
Cut RD a break. We all F-up!

I should keep my mouth shut.
I should keep my mouth shut.
I should keep my mouth shut.

Rupert Pupkin 01-12-2007 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
This is just more incorrect posting...which coincides with your posts yesterday ( where you told us we had to stop bashing jockeys....even though the posts weren't " jockey bashing " at all but a correct analysis of a racing situation ).

Even if a hole had opened it was still a " bad ride " as he took an unnecessary chance for absolutely no reason whatsoever. There were two paths, one was completely clear outside and the other would have taken an occurance to work out and offered the possibility of something extremely detrimental happening. It was an absolute no-brainer and a his decision was so bad that it offers the hint of a possibility that he had motives other than winning the race. Yet, you not only chose to defend him, but you also chastised other posters for questioning his judgement.

Being too result oriented in life, but especially in horse racing, is a very poor thing to do. " Good rides " and " bad rides " are very often NOT defined by how the race works out. Many riders give terrific rides that go completely unnoticed because they simply were on too slow a horse. This you will surely agree with. However, many riders give poor rides that also go unnoticed for both similar reasons or because their mount was good enough to overcome it. For you to think this ride in any way could have been considered anything other than a " bad ride " is a total misread of the situation.

You say we shouldn't comment on jockeys if we haven't ridden a horse. I say, based on your opinions, your's aren't qualified simply because you have.
Yes, I agree 100% with everything you said.

ninetoone 01-12-2007 04:47 PM
Well said DTS....and on that point, if a hole had opened up on the rail & Ramon had taken his horse too wide, we'd have a thread about why he should have taken the rail. Even if we had the information about the instructions, we'd have people whining about how those are "just a guide" or something to that effect...he should have used his judgement...blah blah blah. Come back and look at this thread in 5 years & see what Ramon has accomplished. We'll probably all be wondering why we were talking so much about a 3/5 shot in an AOC race at Aqueduct on a Thursday.

blackthroatedwind 01-12-2007 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetoone
Well said DTS....and on that point, if a hole had opened up on the rail & Ramon had taken his horse too wide, we'd have a thread about why he should have taken the rail. Even if we had the information about the instructions, we'd have people whining about how those are "just a guide" or something to that effect...he should have used his judgement...blah blah blah. Come back and look at this thread in 5 years & see what Ramon has accomplished. We'll probably all be wondering why we were talking so much about a 3/5 shot in an AOC race at Aqueduct on a Thursday.

What happens in the future for Ramon Dominguez has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not yesterday's ride was a poor one. It is interesting that the defenders of Mr. Dominguez continue to make these sort of comments as though there is any relevance to them whatsoever. If he were to win with 100% of his mounts the rest of his riding career yesterday's ride would still remain one of the single most puzzlingly stupid decisions in riding history. It is really only more baffling because Mr. Dominguez is a talented rider. If the worst rider in America had done what he did yesterday it still would have been wrong and somewhat baffling. But, to have a successful rider, even if he is overrated, make the choice he did will forever be mystifying.

Once again, even if the rail had opened for him it would have been a poor ride, and understanding that is important if one is to truly understand horseracing. Results are not nearly as important as how one gets there. That's what seperates winners from losers.

Rupert Pupkin 01-12-2007 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
It depends on what the trainer's instructions are, and how much horse the rider has.
In this particular case I have to disagree with you. The horses had already gone around the turn. Ramon was not going to save any ground by going inside. You save ground if you go inside around the turn. You don't save ground by going to the inside once they've straightened away.

There is no excuse for his ride. The ride was completely moronic. Even if he had not been given any instructions, there was no reason to go inside in that situation. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose.

You are correct that if he would have gotten through and won, there would not be such a big uproar. But astute observers would still agree that it was a bad decision and that he took an unnecessary risk.

I agree with you that when it comes to deciding whether or not to go wide around a turn, it depends alot on how much horse you have. But in this case, the incident did not happen on the turn. It happened after they already straightened away in the stretch.

By the way, I have seen other jockeys make similar moves to this and I always shake my head in disbelief, no matter what the outcome is. You will notice that Garret Gomez will never make a move like that. When they hit the top of the stretch, he will always go to the outside if possible. This is the correct move. It doesn't cost you any ground to swing out once they have straightened away. It only costs you ground to go wide around the turn.

Rupert Pupkin 01-12-2007 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
What happens in the future for Ramon Dominguez has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not yesterday's ride was a poor one. It is interesting that the defenders of Mr. Dominguez continue to make these sort of comments as though there is any relevance to them whatsoever. If he were to win with 100% of his mounts the rest of his riding career yesterday's ride would still remain one of the single most puzzlingly stupid decisions in riding history. It is really only more baffling because Mr. Dominguez is a talented rider. If the worst rider in America had done what he did yesterday it still would have been wrong and somewhat baffling. But, to have a successful rider, even if he is overrated, make the choice he did will forever be mystifying.

Once again, even if the rail had opened for him it would have been a poor ride, and understanding that is important if one is to truly understand horseracing. Results are not nearly as important as how one gets there. That's what seperates winners from losers.
100% correct.

ninetoone 01-12-2007 05:07 PM
[quote=blackthroatedwind]If he were to win with 100% of his mounts the rest of his riding career yesterday's ride would still remain one of the single most puzzlingly stupid decisions in riding history. QUOTE]


You've got to be kidding me. I'm sure you've watched many more races than I have, so I hope I don't need to tell you that the type of scenario that happenned on Thursday happens every single day & every single "great" rider has done something similar or much worse. I've watched the replay several times now, and I can't believe how blown out of proportion this thread has become. He made a bad decision, no doubt. It's worse because he had instructions to do otherwise. If this was "one of the single most puzzlingly stupid decisions in riding history", he'd certainly be losing some business because of it....and believe me, that aint gonna happen.

Rupert Pupkin 01-12-2007 05:15 PM
[quote=ninetoone]
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
If he were to win with 100% of his mounts the rest of his riding career yesterday's ride would still remain one of the single most puzzlingly stupid decisions in riding history. QUOTE]


You've got to be kidding me. I'm sure you've watched many more races than I have, so I hope I don't need to tell you that the type of scenario that happenned on Thursday happens every single day & every single "great" rider has done something similar or much worse. I've watched the replay several times now, and I can't believe how blown out of proportion this thread has become. He made a bad decision, no doubt. It's worse because he had instructions to do otherwise. If this was "one of the single most puzzlingly stupid decisions in riding history", he'd certainly be losing some business because of it....and believe me, that aint gonna happen.
I don't think it has been blown out of proportion at all. The ride was so moronic that it is mind-boggling. I don't see rides like that every day. It is very rare to see rides like that. Sure you see guys get into trouble every day. Sometimes there is no way to avoid trouble in full fields. But the incident yesterday was totally avoidable and the move he made had no upside.

I think he will definitely lose some business, at least in the short-run as a result of that ride.

paisjpq 01-12-2007 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetoone
You've got to be kidding me. I'm sure you've watched many more races than I have, so I hope I don't need to tell you that the type of scenario that happenned on Thursday happens every single day & every single "great" rider has done something similar or much worse. I've watched the replay several times now, and I can't believe how blown out of proportion this thread has become. He made a bad decision, no doubt. It's worse because he had instructions to do otherwise. If this was "one of the single most puzzlingly stupid decisions in riding history", he'd certainly be losing some business because of it....and believe me, that aint gonna happen.
If I had that horse I wouldn't ride him again, if for no other reason than to make a point to him that he is given instructions for a reason...we all know that things happen in a race that force jocks to abandon the best laid plans but that is not the case here...and I believe the owner feels the same way.

ninetoone 01-12-2007 05:23 PM
The guy made a mistake & he said he was sorry. To say that it was one of the biggest mistakes in history is just plain ridiculous. The decision (albeit against instructions) was made in a split second & to critique it this much has taken Monday morning quarterbacking to a new level. I seriously doubt that Ramon's business will suffer as a result of this, and my guess is that Contessa probably accepted the apology & said something to the effect of "don't let it happen again"...


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